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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762450 is a reply to message #762362 ]	Wed, 24 June 2020 20:35

Skookum Jim
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Awesome!

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762466 is a reply to message #762450 ]	Wed, 24 June 2020 22:55

Magnum
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Should Lowe be in the HHOF?[ 28 vote(s) ]

1. Yes 12 / 43%
2. No 16 / 57%

If Kevin Lowe can be in the HHOF, then Kevin Federline can be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

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2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762474 is a reply to message #762466 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 06:27

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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Part of 6 Stanley Cup teams and identified as a key guy on all of them. 7 All-stars appearances, member of a Canada Cup team. Seems like an Hall worthy resume to me. I think there is guys in there with worse resumes that Lowe's.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762481 is a reply to message #762466 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 09:30

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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Magnum wrote on Wed, 24 June 2020 22:55

If Kevin Lowe can be in the HHOF, then Kevin Federline can be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

I do wonder if anyone who voted against Kevin Lowe did it because they weren't happy with his involvement with the Oilers management since their bad run? He was voted in as a player, what he did as a manager has nothing to do with his accomplishments as a player. If you are going to say Lowe isn't hall worthy because of his involvement in Oilers management then do you think Gretzky isn't a hall of famer because he tried coaching and wasn't good at it?

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762482 is a reply to message #762481 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 09:39

smyth260
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Registered: November 2007

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He's been passed over 19 times so I think Kevin Lowe is just not some hockey legend, despite what happened yesterday.

Conspiracy theory: Wayne made some phonecalls.

Clean house or bust

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762484 is a reply to message #762481 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 09:48

CrudeRemarks
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 09:30

Magnum wrote on Wed, 24 June 2020 22:55

If Kevin Lowe can be in the HHOF, then Kevin Federline can be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Nope. Also as previously mentioned, Wayne got in to the HOF before he ever coached a game.

And Lowe was a terrible hockey player. He only learned to pass backhand in the late 90s. This is a travesty of unbelievable proportions.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762489 is a reply to message #762484 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 10:16

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 09:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 09:30

Magnum wrote on Wed, 24 June 2020 22:55

If Kevin Lowe can be in the HHOF, then Kevin Federline can be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Well I guess that means you won't be going to his plaque if you ever visit the hall.

[Updated on: Thu, 25 June 2020 10:34]

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762490 is a reply to message #762489 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 10:28

CrudeRemarks
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:16

CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 09:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 09:30

Magnum wrote on Wed, 24 June 2020 22:55

If Kevin Lowe can be in the HHOF, then Kevin Federline can be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Well I guess that means you won't be going to his plague if you ever visit the hall.

That's the best typo ever.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762492 is a reply to message #762490 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 10:35

RDOilerfan
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:28

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:16

CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 09:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 09:30

Magnum wrote on Wed, 24 June 2020 22:55

If Kevin Lowe can be in the HHOF, then Kevin Federline can be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Well I guess that means you won't be going to his plague if you ever visit the hall.

That's the best typo ever.

OOPS!!

Too much Corona talk.

I fixed it.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762494 is a reply to message #762492 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 10:51

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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Maybe there is an automatic termination clause in Russell's contract if Lowe gets into the Hall. Russell got a little more money in exchange for the clause. Russell didn't think it would happen at least for the length of the deal.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762600 is a reply to message #762490 ]	Sat, 27 June 2020 10:24

ggibbs
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I’m guessing most of the haters never saw him compete in his prime and only know him as the administrative train wreck of the late 90’s and early 2000’s. The guy has been a part of winning everything that can be won in this game. He lives and breathes Oilers; why else would he have stuck around for the abuse he had received from fans the last 20 years? Yes he has an ego, who doesn’t? You would too with 6 cups with your name on it. As a player, he deserves it and should be up there with the Others.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762500 is a reply to message #762466 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

jds308
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I've got no problem with KLowe getting in as a player. I would also be fine if he never got in. Fact is, it just doesn't matter all that much to me. Rod Langway got in 2002, so they pretty much let anyone in if it fits their agenda that year. As for Lowe the player, compared to many others that have got in before him, yeah I think he deserves to be there. He also won the King Clancy award in 89/90 you know?

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762503 is a reply to message #762500 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 12:02

NetBOG
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jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762506 is a reply to message #762503 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 12:20

Adam
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NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Least deserving Norris Winner ever though...

I did refer to Lowe as this generation's Dick Duff. LaPerriere from the Habs in the 70s is in as well and that's a joke too.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762513 is a reply to message #762506 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 12:45

NetBOG
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Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:20

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Least deserving Norris Winner ever though...

I did refer to Lowe as this generation's Dick Duff. LaPerriere from the Habs in the 70s is in as well and that's a joke too.

Explain?

It's not like Bourque, Coffey, Potvin, Park, Howe and many others weren't also available to vote on.

He went 4-2-4 in 3 consecutive years of Hart voting too. When Gretzky was pre-determined to win.

Do you think voters just had an aneurysm while voting for 2 consecutive years (placed 2nd in the 3rd)

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762521 is a reply to message #762513 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 13:42

RDOilerfan
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If Guy Carbonneau can get voted in, Lowe can be in, in my opinion.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762522 is a reply to message #762513 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 13:55

Adam
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NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:45

Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:20

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Least deserving Norris Winner ever though...

I did refer to Lowe as this generation's Dick Duff. LaPerriere from the Habs in the 70s is in as well and that's a joke too.

I had a post about this a while back. I think people over-rate defence first players in hockey and always have. Toughness is over-prized, shot blocking the same.

Let's look at the second year because it's the most egregious, despite Langway TRIPLING his goal output year over year:

Langway 80GP 9G 24A 33Pts
Coffey 80GP 40G 86A 126Pts

This is only the second time in history that a defenceman scored 40 goals in a season (Coffey would do it again a couple years later and set the record at 48). This was the third highest point total for a defenceman of all-time at the time (4th now) and the highest by anyone not named Bobby Orr.

While Langway won because he was considered a defensive stalwart, he was a +14 to Coffey's +52. Langway was 8th on his team in plus minus and 4th among defencemen, while Coffey was the top blueliner and 2nd on his team so it's not simply that Langway was excelling on a terrible team. The Capitals were pretty decent (48-27-5, 2nd in the Patrick Division) and he was not head and shoulders above any teammates in any measurable categories - he basically won based on intangibles as far as I can tell, despite an absolutely incredible season from Paul Coffey - who was 2nd in the entire league in scoring.

I do think some of that is Oilers blowback and some belief that Gretzky was a big part of it, but no one else not named Orr ever did anything close with or without Gretzky. Langway, tied for 43rd among defenceman in scoring that year, shouldn't likely have even been a finalist.

Edit: Bourque (96 points) and Potvin (85 points) should have been the 1984 runners up.

[Updated on: Thu, 25 June 2020 13:56]

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762523 is a reply to message #762503 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 13:59

jds308
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NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

My point is, there's been plenty of players voted in that could go either way. Lowe isn't the first, and I would suggest, isn't a terrible selection by any means.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762530 is a reply to message #762523 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 14:29

RDOilerfan
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jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 13:59

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

My point is, there's been plenty of players voted in that could go either way. Lowe isn't the first, and I would suggest, isn't a terrible selection by any means.

I totally agree with you.
Bob Gainey is in there. He was a really good defensive player. He had 501 pts. He won a lot of cups on a stacked 70's Habs team.
Clark Gillies has 697 pts.
Rod Langway as people have been discussing. Kevin Lowe had over 100 more points and 5 more cups.
Cam Neely is maybe more of a name. He was a really good player but I wouldn't call him a game changing, dominate player. He doesn't even have 1 cup. Probably best known for being Sea Bass in the movie Dumb and Dumber.

There are tons of guys who are real good players but are they guys who people go WOW. No.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762532 is a reply to message #762530 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 14:51

Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:29

Cam Neely is maybe more of a name. He was a really good player but I wouldn't call him a game changing, dominate player. He doesn't even have 1 cup. Probably best known for being Sea Bass in the movie Dumb and Dumber.

There are tons of guys who are real good players but are they guys who people go WOW. No.

Cam Neely doesn't belong on your list. He was a dominant power forward, and scored just under a point a game (694 points in 726 games). He scored 50 goals in 50 games played - one of only 8 players who've been able to say that.

No Cups, but two trips to the Finals, and another to the semi-finals. Team accomplishments aren't a very good barometer. Marcel Dionne never won a Cup, Kevin Lowe won six of them. Who would you rather build a team around? Hell, Colin Fraser won three cups - does that make him anything but a fringe player?

Neely's numbers would have been better but that health issues cut his career short. He's in a similar category to Lindros, Forsberg, and Bure. All very good, all were only able to play between 700-800 games.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762533 is a reply to message #762532 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 14:57

CrudeRemarks
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Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:29

Looks dirty. Only Giordano could do something like that in today's game and not get suspended.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762536 is a reply to message #762532 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 15:16

RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:29

That is your opinion that he doesn't deserve to be on my list, I don't share it. Maybe his numbers would have been better but staying healthy plays a factor in my books. He scored a good chunk of his goals and points in the 80's where scoring was crazy. NO denying he was a really, really good player but hall of famer? Pretty debatable. There was a time when Lindros and Forsberg were thought of as one of the best players in the league. Cam Neely was a really good player but I am 42, I remember when Neely player. There was never a time that I remember when Neely was regarded as one of the leagues absolute best players like the guys you listed.

Theo Fleury, a player as an Oilers fan I hated. 1088 pts in 1084 games. He score pretty much all of his points and goals in the 90's and early 2000's. The clutch and grab period. At his size, that's pretty freaking impressive and shows how good he was. I'd have him in over Neely personally. Off ice issues are keeping him out but given what that guy went through in junior, I kind of can see why.

Alex Mogilny. 473 goals, 1032 pts in 990 games. He was a really, really good player. I'd probably have him over Neely.

I don't have a problem with Neely being in there but as I said, there are lots of guys who I think is debatable for if they are worth or not. Is Kevin Lowe debatable. Sure he is.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762539 is a reply to message #762536 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 15:46

Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 15:16

Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:29

You're definitely allowed to be wrong.

Mogilny should be in the Hall of Fame. Fleury should probably eventually make that. They're both better than Lowe.

Neely was one of the best, and one of the most-feared players in the league of his time. He scored 50 goals in 44 games played in 1992-93. As mentioned, that is a pace that almost no one else, ever, has been able to maintain. Maybe you just don't remember the Bruins of the 80s much.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762549 is a reply to message #762530 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 19:34

Gator21
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:29

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 13:59

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

My point is, there's been plenty of players voted in that could go either way. Lowe isn't the first, and I would suggest, isn't a terrible selection by any means.

I totally agree with you.
Bob Gainey is in there. He was a really good defensive player. He had 501 pts. He won a lot of cups on a stacked 70's Habs team.
Clark Gillies has 697 pts.
Rod Langway as people have been discussing. Kevin Lowe had over 100 more points and 5 more cups.
Cam Neely is maybe more of a name. He was a really good player but I wouldn't call him a game changing, dominate player. He doesn't even have 1 cup. Probably best known for being Sea Bass in the movie Dumb and Dumber.

There are tons of guys who are real good players but are they guys who people go WOW. No.

This. My favourite sports talk show is Pardon the Interruption and whenever they debate a Hall of Famer usually in the NFL they always say it's the Hall of the all-time greats and not the hall of the "very good" and sadly I think the NHL has lowered it's standards to the Hall of the very good

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762525 is a reply to message #762503 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 14:07

Adam
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NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Worth asking - did Lowe ever finish Top 5 in Norris voting? I know he never made any first or second team all-star teams.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762527 is a reply to message #762525 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 14:21

CrudeRemarks
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Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:07

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Worth asking - did Lowe ever finish Top 5 in Norris voting? I know he never made any first or second team all-star teams.

Once. 84/85 he was 5th. only had half the points of the 10th place guy but I'm sure he demonstrated a ton of intangibles.

8th once and 10th once.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762528 is a reply to message #762527 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 14:24

NetBOG
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:21

Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 14:07

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 12:02

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 11:50

2-time Norris trophy winner Rod Langway is where you go for a guy you don't think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

Worth asking - did Lowe ever finish Top 5 in Norris voting? I know he never made any first or second team all-star teams.

Once. 84/85 he was 5th. only had half the points of the 10th place guy but I'm sure he demonstrated a ton of intangibles.

8th once and 10th once.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/loweke01.html

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762534 is a reply to message #762528 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 15:01

Magnum
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Should really sucking for a long-long-time in a management role, be taken into account?

I think so, if someone was pretty good for seven years, then an utter embarrassment for the next seven, that has to have an impact.

If he's a debatable choice as a player, the management terribleness should tip the balance to him not being included.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762535 is a reply to message #762534 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 15:09

Adam
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Magnum wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 15:01

I'll go out on a ledge and suggest it is very rare for a player to be a debatable choice even in the place where he played the bulk of his career. That Edmontonians doubt this is a great Hall pick probably suggests that it isn't.

I do think that if he'd chosen to become, say, a florist after his hockey career ended, rather than sewering the team for two decades, he probably would have more support here though.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762537 is a reply to message #762535 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 15:16

CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 15:09

Magnum wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 15:01

Yeah, I'd bet a dollar a 45 year old Caps fan could give a solid 15 minute speech on why Rod Langway was a great HOF player. I couldn't do that for Lowe and I should love the guy. He was tough. He came back. He won Cups. He scored the first goal (tipped in off Gretzky, I got your back Crude). Hell, I was pictured in the Gateway (I think) with him in 1983-4. The details are fuzzy. My point is, he should be our guy, the secret Oiler that was never getting enough praise. He's not. He's the old guy at a college party.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762538 is a reply to message #762537 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 15:22

CrudeRemarks
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https://media3.giphy.com/media/I4wGMXoi2kMDe/200.gif

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762541 is a reply to message #762500 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 17:28

Skookum Jim
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jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:50

Agree.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762547 is a reply to message #762541 ]	Thu, 25 June 2020 18:34

CrudeRemarks
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 17:28

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:50

Agree.

Disagree.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762566 is a reply to message #762541 ]	Fri, 26 June 2020 16:05

K.McC#24
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Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 17:28

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:50

Agree.

Being a 7 time all star among your peers is pretty good, 6 championships with 2 teams. I never had an issue with Kevin Lowe until he became part of the management group, and this is about the player. The HOF has a lot of players in it that weren't superstars in their era. I'm not in the K Lowe fan club, but at the same time I'm not triggered by the selection.
confused2

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762595 is a reply to message #762566 ]	Fri, 26 June 2020 22:06

Skookum Jim
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4 Cups

K.McC#24 wrote on Fri, 26 June 2020 15:05

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 17:28

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:50

Agree.

The decade of darkness management decisions has tainted the respect level he gets in Edmonton, deservedly, but I'm genuinely happy for the guy getting into the HHoF.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762599 is a reply to message #762595 ]	Sat, 27 June 2020 01:09

nullterm
Messages: 1034
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 26 June 2020 21:06

K.McC#24 wrote on Fri, 26 June 2020 15:05

Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 17:28

jds308 wrote on Thu, 25 June 2020 10:50

Agree.

The decade of darkness management decisions has tainted the respect level he gets in Edmonton, deservedly, but I'm genuinely happy for the guy getting into the HHoF.

100%. It's hard to separate the jersey from the business suit, but the jersey was a big part of the team's success on the ice.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762767 is a reply to message #762362 ]	Mon, 29 June 2020 21:08

NetBOG
Messages: 2951
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

Fun fact:

Oilers team salary 2001-2002: $24.3 million
Doug Weight salary 2001-2002: $9 million

That why Weight left. Oilers cheap owners. Smyth just wasn't good enough to command a stupid contract from a rich team.

Kevin Lowe actually did a really good job keeping the team competitive without any money.

Introduction of the salary cap and change in ownership seems to have done more to sewer the team.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762770 is a reply to message #762767 ]	Mon, 29 June 2020 21:17

nullterm
Messages: 1034
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

1 Cup

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 20:08

MacT and Lowe were actually doing a good to great job with limited resources that they had, from 2000 to the summer of 06.

Then the wheels fell off...
... and the car exploded
... and the neighbouhood caught fire
... and the city burned.

[Updated on: Mon, 29 June 2020 21:18]

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762772 is a reply to message #762770 ]	Mon, 29 June 2020 21:25

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

nullterm wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 21:17

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 20:08

Big reason the team died is when the leadership core Sather left Lowe went away IMO. That is the thing Lowe was missing through the entire run of failed rebuilds. He thought the team could just be handed to kids. He watched guys like Smith, Smyth, Moreau, Marchant and others move on and there was not much left. Team was just lost and the only idea Lowe had to fix it was more kids, and maybe some free agent washed up vets that he or MacT thought could increase the teams overall "Leadership" rating, but, yeah, that doesn't work well.

The game changed a bit too during Lowe's POHO days. He admitted this a few years ago, he didn't realize how important puck moving D were. He said he kept thinking back to how every time Dallas beat him in the playoffs it was because of their top end forwards, so he wanted to get that through the draft. He forgot about veteran leaders and puck moving D that the rest of the league were busy drafting and developing (while we shipped off every one that we managed to draft).

Anyways, results speak for themselves, the game left Lowe behind and he really put no effort into adapting and understanding how the game was changing.

[Updated on: Mon, 29 June 2020 21:27]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762774 is a reply to message #762772 ]	Mon, 29 June 2020 21:42

Adam
Messages: 7178
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 21:25

nullterm wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 21:17

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 20:08

Big reason the team died is when the leadership core Sather left Lowe went away IMO. That is the thing Lowe was missing through the entire run of failed rebuilds. He thought the team could just be handed to kids. He watched guys like Smith, Smyth, Moreau, Marchant and others move on and there was not much left. Team was just lost and the only idea Lowe had to fix it was more kids.

The game changed a bit too during Lowe's POHO days. He admitted this a few years ago, he didn't realize how important puck moving D were. He said he kept thinking back to how every time Dallas beat him in the playoffs it was because of their top end forwards, so he wanted to get that through the draft. He forgot about veteran leaders, puck moving D that the rest of the league were busy drafting and developing (while we shipped off every one that we managed to draft).

Anyways, results speak for themselves, the game left Lowe behind and he really put no effort into adapting and understanding how the game was changing.

I tend to agree. Sather's responsible for almost anything good that happens up until 2005-06. He did the miraculous Salo trade. He left us with Weight/Guerin/Smyth as the top line. Marchant/Grier/Moreau was called a checking line, but used more like a 2nd line. And they regularly outplayed their opposition. Hamrlik/Niinimaa/Poti/Smith is a pretty solid top four. Laraque was a decent fourth liner and enforcer. The team had already drafted Horcoff, Comrie, Pisani, Chimera.

Lowe eroded that. Guerin deal turns out well due to Hemsky pick, but the Weight deal was horrendous. Hamrlik for Brewer/Green is a downgrade. Poti goes for for York - that's not bad, but Niinimaa for Isbister/Torres is a loss too. Grier goes for draft picks. Marchant leaves (bitter) as a free agent. Chimera leaves (bitter) in a trade for draft picks. Comrie leaves (bitter) - and we all know that story.

Kevin Lowe had a fantastic 2005-06 season. Everything he touched turned to gold. Brewer, Lynch, Woywitka for Pronger, York for Peca, Rita and Cross for Tarnstrom, Salmelainen for Spacek, 2nd round pick and Reasoner for Samsonov, 1st rd pick for Roloson. He did phenomenally that year. But other than that, I have a hard time seeing what Lowe did that was great other than that.

MacTavish was a decent coach and kept us on the bubble despite the eroding talent base, but Lowe? Not good.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Kevin Lowe and Ken Holland inducted into HHOF [message #762777 is a reply to message #762774 ]	Mon, 29 June 2020 21:57

Kr55
Messages: 10783
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 21:42

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 21:25

nullterm wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 21:17

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 29 June 2020 20:08

Big reason the team died is when the leadership core Sather left Lowe went away IMO. That is the thing Lowe was missing through the entire run of failed rebuilds. He thought the team could just be handed to kids. He watched guys like Smith, Smyth, Moreau, Marchant and others move on and there was not much left. Team was just lost and the only idea Lowe had to fix it was more kids.

The game changed a bit too during Lowe's POHO days. He admitted this a few years ago, he didn't realize how important puck moving D were. He said he kept thinking back to how every time Dallas beat him in the playoffs it was because of their top end forwards, so he wanted to get that through the draft. He forgot about veteran leaders, puck moving D that the rest of the league were busy drafting and developing (while we shipped off every one that we managed to draft).

Anyways, results speak for themselves, the game left Lowe behind and he really put no effort into adapting and understanding how the game was changing.

Yeah, I won't deny that Lowe caught lightning in a bottle that year. Almost missed the playoffs of course, and that was an epic year of choking by the top teams in the west with the top 4 losing to the bottom 4, and after Detroit's choke (in a long run of chokes around that time). We got to play a lot of green teams the whole way through to the finals. But yeah, it ended up a good year. Lowe spent the next 13+ years proving it was a fluke though :)

I actually see some parallels between Chia and Lowe's GM careers. Only Chia got to keep all the talent he inherited. Was probably more than Lowe had too, and the results matched that. Still, in the end, after years of giving away talent for pennies on the dollar, and slowly chipping away at depth on the team, Chia exposed what a weak manager he was, finally after almost a decade. And of course had an epic followup with us to leave no doubt.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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