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Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739016]	Wed, 19 June 2019 11:51

g2k
Messages: 2840
Registered: January 2003
Location: The Hood

2 Cups

Thanks Bobby. Thanks Kevin. Thanks Craig. Thanks Peter. Thanks Todd.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctw camp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

#firebob #screwitjustselltheteam #ownerisacreep

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739017 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 11:55

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

g2k wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:51

Thanks Bobby. Thanks Kevin. Thanks Craig. Thanks Peter. Thanks Todd.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctw camp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

New coach and GM. 2 seasons of not much on the ice, capped off by a rare injury that he's working through with the Oilers medical staff. And he has zero time to put an effort in next year with the Oilers.

That's a bad look IMO.

I say let him sit if he can't return a good player.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739020 is a reply to message #739017 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 12:00

clutchlikeeberle
Messages: 252
Registered: April 2012

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I agree - take the Stevie Y approach with Drouin.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739022 is a reply to message #739017 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 12:06

mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:55

g2k wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:51

Thanks Bobby. Thanks Kevin. Thanks Craig. Thanks Peter. Thanks Todd.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctw camp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

I'm not surprised.

I'm not opposed with him playing in Europe for a year, but I also have little faith at this point of him ever being a player of impact for the Oilers. I'd be trying to move him for another young player in need of a change of address (Roslovic, Fabbri, Burakovsky).

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739023 is a reply to message #739022 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 12:15

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I am a little disappointed that with a new GM and hockey ops staff in place plus a new coach that JP wouldn't be willing to give it 1 more year. I get he would be unhappy with how things have gone but a lot of the people in the organization who would have handled him are gone. The new GM is known to be patient and about developing young players. I I thought maybe he would sign a 1 year deal. If it doesn't go well, leave. The Oilers didn't handle JP properly but I also think that JP needs to shoulders some blame as well. To me, the fact he isn't willing to wait and see with the new coach and GM tells me he's still not shouldering any blame.

It's unfortunate. I still believe though in hindsight, he shouldn't have been the #4 overall. He's not good enough to warrant that selection.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739024 is a reply to message #739023 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 12:31

mazankowski
Messages: 27
Registered: June 2006
Location: Kelowna BC

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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:15

I am a little disappointed that with a new GM and hockey ops staff in place plus a new coach that JP wouldn't be willing to give it 1 more year. I get he would be unhappy with how things have gone but a lot of the people in the organization who would have handled him are gone. The new GM is known to be patient and about developing young players. I I thought maybe he would sign a 1 year deal. If it doesn't go well, leave. The Oilers didn't handle JP properly but I also think that JP needs to shoulders some blame as well. To me, the fact he isn't willing to wait and see with the new coach and GM tells me he's still not shouldering any blame.

It's unfortunate. I still believe though in hindsight, he shouldn't have been the #4 overall. He's not good enough to warrant that selection.

Which is what scares me about these USNDP players in the top 10, playing with other high end players in their draft years.

As for JP, the spot was there for the taking and if the injury impacted his ability, well the same could be said about Yamamoto, but you don't see him demanding a trade.

If he wants somewhere with more opportunity, then by all means, but this is a team desperate for wingers. If you can't make it work here, then it's difficult to imagine him making it somewhere else. There were glimpses of his potential during the pre-season last year, but he never took the ball and ran with it. I don't see him ever being a fit on McDavid's RW as he doesn't posess the IQ to get into open spots for looks from Connor. Maybe flanking on a line with RNH or LD, but again, if those guys are on the ice, you better be able to be great off the rush, be dominant in board play below the dots, and you need to go to the net. Haven't seen those things from JP yet and who knows if we ever will.

I am an avid proponent for taking North Americans with top tier 1st round picks, especially if the player is playing outside of NA in their draft year. It's a total crap shoot as to whether they will be able to translate it over to the NHL immediately or at all.

If you can deal JP at the draft, you do it. I don't think taking a chance on a guy like Gauthier solves any problems and we still lose on the upside. However, the problem now becomes that we have a player wanting out, coming off surgery, and terrible year = zero value.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 June 2019 12:38]

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739032 is a reply to message #739017 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 13:16

K.McC#24
Messages: 2834
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:55

g2k wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:51

Thanks Bobby. Thanks Kevin. Thanks Craig. Thanks Peter. Thanks Todd.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctw camp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Yup, the Oilers history with notable high draft picks busting out (including a 1st overall and a D they somehow gave up a 1st and a 2nd for), earns them criticism here, but if JP doesn't want to try to be a real hockey player here and up his value, the Oilers should definitely NOT sell low. JP and his agent, if they really want to move to a better opportunity, should be all in in terms of him increasing his value as an Oiler in order to facilitate a move. The Oilers should not feel pressure in moving him.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739035 is a reply to message #739017 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 16:21

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:55

g2k wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 11:51

Thanks Bobby. Thanks Kevin. Thanks Craig. Thanks Peter. Thanks Todd.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctw camp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Just like the Lightning with Drouin, unless someone is offering substantial return, you just say no to a trade right now and tell the player he needs to play his way out of town. He also made his trade request three seasons in, with just 42 NHL points to his name, and an AHL hold-out. The Lightning rehabilitated the player, and not just played him, but gave him a substantial role. As a result, when they did deal him, they got a tremendous asset back for him.

The approach with Puljujarvi has to be the same.

EDIT to Add:

The approach can't be the one the Oilers took with Yakupov - we feel angry and slighted by your request, so we're going to play you down the roster and limit any opportunity you have for offence. That just devalues the asset and you end up getting Pochiro for him in the end...Worth noting with Drouin - the Lightning gave him prime time on the powerplay and he put up 26 of his 53 points with the man advantage...

[Updated on: Wed, 19 June 2019 16:24]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739027 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 12:42

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

1 Cup

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/- GP G A Pts PIM

2016-17 Edmonton Oilers NHL 28 1 7 8 10 5 -- -- -- -- --
2016-17 Bakersfield Condors AHL 39 12 16 28 10 -2 -- -- -- -- --
2017-18 Bakersfield Condors AHL 10 1 4 5 4 -2 -- -- -- -- --
2017-18 Edmonton Oilers NHL 65 12 8 20 14 -1 -- -- -- -- --
2018-19 Edmonton Oilers NHL 46 4 5 9 16 -14 -- -- -- -- --
2018-19 Bakersfield Condors AHL 4 2 2 4 7 2
NHL Totals 139 17 20 37 40

What more do you want Jesse? You had over 13 games in the minors in the last two years to perfect your game while dealing with a chronic injury.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739030 is a reply to message #739027 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 12:55

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 12:42

If his agent did get Chia to agree to 40 NHl roster games a year to ensure a ~450k/year salary and RFA/UFA year burning, then he certainly needs to take some of the blame too for the lack of AHL time.

Chia being a pushover, plus a sense of entitlment from the Pulju side may have created the worst possible combo for this player that needed a heck of a lot more development outside the NHL. McLellan likely got a sniff of the entitlement from Pulju early on and that was it. His best hockey came his 1st year when he got some McDavid time. When he got dropped down, there seemed to be a point of no return for him for his opportunity in the lineup.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 June 2019 13:00]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739037 is a reply to message #739030 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 16:32

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 12:55

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 12:42

A) Never give games played promises as a GM. It's ridiculous.

B) Even if GMs give those kind of assurances to an agent, if it ain't working, you don't keep those promises.

C) If you HAVE to make those promises, it's probably wise to make sure he can at least speak English well enough to understand the coach, and that you actually think he's ready for the jump to the NHL.

D) Having a guy stay in Europe isn't a bad thing if he's not ready, so if it meant he didn't sign for a year or two, then let him stay there. I don't think he goes back in to the draft after two years like a junior player who didn't sign would, so let him ripen.

The problem was that the Oilers are forever selling top picks as hope, and so they thought given that he was highly touted that that was the same thing as NHL-ready. The risk of him not coming over immediately was just that it meant they would have had to address their right wing another way - possibly by not trading off Jordan Eberle, or by acquiring someone capable of filling that role.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739038 is a reply to message #739037 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 16:36

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 16:32

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 12:55

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 12:42

Technically, the trade was Hall for Larsson, Lucic and Puljujarvi :)

If this was a properly run, not totally desperate team, we probably come way out ahead here just letting Pulju play in Finland for 2 more years before he plays his next year in the AHL. Guess the hip stuff would have shown up this year, so he gets a 2nd AHl year before he finally makes his NHL debut in 20/21 :)

[Updated on: Wed, 19 June 2019 16:41]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739040 is a reply to message #739038 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 16:43

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 16:36

Adam wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 16:32

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 12:55

CrudeRemarks wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 12:42

Or he has a great season or two in Europe, has a ton of confidence, shows up to a coach that doesn't dislike him simply because of his last name and his accent, and maybe he does make the jump as a 19 or 20 year old.

It probably would have made sense to get him English lessons right away no matter what...you wonder if anyone on the Oilers brass actually tried to talk to him at the draft table...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739028 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 12:43

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Let him sit until moss grows on his ass.
He has zero current trade value, hence zero leverage.
Guy had a hip joint defect, surgery may have corrected it, his trade value is actually probably less than zero. He needs to prove he can play NHL hockey.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739034 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 15:48

bigred75
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Lucic and JP for Eriksson and DiPietro or Demko or Juolevi?

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739043 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 16:59

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Spector says Pulju has told the Oilers flat out that he will not play for them again. No trade, he's going to Europe.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jesse-puljujarvi-tells-o ilers-trade-ill-play-europe/

Damn it Pulju. Your smile is fake isn't it??

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739045 is a reply to message #739043 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 17:01

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 16:59

That does seem to suggest that at least one of the players doesn't think that the Oilers mess was all cleaned up with Chiarelli, McLellan and MacTavish leaving town...maybe someone just needs to tell him that Lowe isn't in hockey operations?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739046 is a reply to message #739045 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 17:03

Kr55
Messages: 10769
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 17:01

Kr55 wrote on Wed, 19 June 2019 16:59

Are you suggesting that it's not true that Holland has "full autonomy"? That's blasphemy.

Maybe the kid is just embarrassed from how pathetic he has looked here the last few years. Playing in Europe would be good for him to grow up. Let him go.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739050 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 17:24

philly boy
Messages: 135
Registered: July 2007
Location: E-Town

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A solid 85% of the blame lays with the Oilers. Stupid.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739051 is a reply to message #739050 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 17:52

Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

Absolutely handle this like Drouin. You have 0 leverage here Jesse. I hate the way the Oilers handled him, but for once I would like for the team to not give away an asset at their absolute lowest value.

Go play in Europe, or try again here this year with your new hips and new coach. Give him a push on the power play and don't saddle him with Lucic. See what happens.

Unless someone is giving me a top 10 pick this year, which there is no chance that would happen, I'm not trading him. Up your value or sit. Don't care.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739055 is a reply to message #739051 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 18:42

Lew19
Messages: 46
Registered: February 2009

No Cups

I totally agree. Let him ripen in Europe and deal him when a worthy deal comes along. But it's the Oilers.....another conditional 3rd and a US college prospect...lame

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739057 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 18:58

Xombie
Messages: 454
Registered: March 2004
Location: E-Town

No Cups

See ya later Jesse.

You will be best remembered for licking your nostril, photo bombing NHL interviews while eating pizza, smiling like the joker, and saying you have old man hips. Not a single memory of you playing hockey. You stupid goof! Even Yak had his slide down center ice.

Enjoy those small(er) European paychecks!

Side note: Everything Chiarelli did or touched was bad. Other than calling Conner's name in 2015. The man is cursed.

Bob Marley and the (Hartford) Wailers.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739065 is a reply to message #739057 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 20:15

overdue
Messages: 493
Registered: October 2014

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Looks like he's going to have to learn the hard way, if at all. I wonder how much of this is about taking bad advice from a greedy agent. The Oilers mishandled him, there is no doubt about that, but he was being given the chance to step up this season and prove his worth whether to up his value in a trade or become a useful player and instead has chosen to turtle. Very disappointing but in hindsight, Kekalainen passing on him in the draft is looking like a smart move for Columbus. He obviously knew something. Just hope the Oilers eventually get a good player or prospect back for him but for now it looks like he'll be in limbo until his value increases.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 June 2019 14:53]

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739066 is a reply to message #739065 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 20:33

Jakey
Messages: 40
Registered: November 2007
Location: Leduc

No Cups

Very immature for him not to say privately that he would come back for a year get some good play time &n a legit shot to get some more points & then the Oilers can grant him his trade request without going public. He has nothing to gain from this and everything to lose. He will be playing in Europe next year. Hopefully gets his act together and gets some decent points. Then we can trade him at next year’s draft for something decent.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739072 is a reply to message #739066 ]	Wed, 19 June 2019 23:26

clutchlikeeberle
Messages: 252
Registered: April 2012

No Cups

You know what .... hell with that. What a me first, new generation thing to say. I will be good at my job you watch just give me another city! You know all that ice time I got, and I played like I had rocks between my ears, and looked like I was too good to put in hard work and commitment

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Re: wants out. [message #739073 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 00:00

Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC

4 Cups

Another reason to call Puljujarvi's KHL bluff is that it sets a team standard, a message for any future prospects, or active players, that the franchise won't be bullied into trade demands, and are prepared to let the prospect sit for eternity.

You'll get fewer players and agents going public demanding trades, it'll be in their best interest to increase their own stock price first so the team has something to bargain with. Puljujarvi has no cards to play .. well .. except maybe a joker ..

[Updated on: Thu, 20 June 2019 00:02]

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739074 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 00:15

mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

I see this playing out a couple of ways:

Puljujarvi plays in Europe, plays well, increases his value somewhat, but Oilers still deal from a position of weakness as pro scouts haven't seen him playing and teams are leery of him being in Europe. Maybe people feel better about his hip issues though (the pitch the Oilers should be making right now should be he wasn't playing well because of the hips and will be better now).

Puljujarvi plays in Europe, plays poorly, basically becomes a worthless asset the Oilers can't turn into anything (hello Zach Pochiro!).

Oilers get spiteful, bury Puljujarvi, refuse to move him, and get nothing at all.

Oilers panic and take the first possible deal and get next to nothing (The Chiarelli Special).

Oilers don't panic, but move him this summer. I'm HOPEFUL the return can be another young player in need of a change of scenery, perhaps someone with a lower ceiling but a higher roof. Someone like Jack Roslovic (I believe he has asked for a trade also?) or Alex Nylander or Robby Fabbri or Josh Ho-Sang. Honestly, I think this is the best possible scenerio at this point, and if a deal is in place for this type of player - a damaged young prospect with upside - they should take it, because that is basically what Puljujarvi is at this point.

But goodness, don't let spite get in the way of a return, because chances are it will only get worse the longer you wait. This isn't a Drouin or Duchene situation... this is a guy with NHL history and so far it hasn't been very good. He's young and he isn't hopeless, but... I can't see anyone gambling large on him right now.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739078 is a reply to message #739074 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 08:35

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

I find how JP and is agent are handling this pretty troubling and in my opinion an indication of some issues that the Oilers have had with the player. I don't think for a second that the Oilers handled him properly. I have said that dozens of times. Even though the norm for most top 5 picks is they don't need a ton of development time before they become an NHLer, he did. He needed a lot of AHL time, maybe even 3 years wroth just to be able to maybe be a full time NHLer. So they screwed up there. But you keep hearing talk about how JP and his agent were against the AHL. I don't know if that is true but it keeps coming up by multiple people, some of which aren't even from Edmonton or affiliated with the Oilers. Then you saw how when JP was drowning in the NHL and so clearly not ready, he would get sent down to the minors and if he has ANY success, he was back up immediately. They did it this year where he was so clearly over his head in the NHL, they send him down, he plays 4 games, looks decent in the AHL and he's back up. That just screams a player and agent going "See, see, I told you we are too good for the AHL, get us back up." When a player is so over his head in the NHL, sending him to the AHL for a week and a half isn't going to suddenly fix that. The Oilers were not good in his handling but I have a hard time believing even they being as dumb as they were would think a week in the AHL fixes all, especially after it was year 3 of him being lousy in the NHL.

So he's frustrated and wants out. I get that. If I was him and the same guys were in place, I would feel the same. Then the GM is fired, a bunch of the hockey ops staff is fired, pretty much the entire coaching staff is fired. A new GM who has a multiple decades long philosophy of building around and developing young players and who is a big fan of European players comes in. That should be music to JP's ears, he talks to him, I am sure said I want to keep you but you have to work your way up. JP wants a fresh start. Other than wearing the same logo, it will be a fresh start but he still wants to go. He makes it worse by saying, he won't play for the Oilers, so either trade him or he will take his ball and go to Europe.

So in my opinion, if this is the advice he is getting from his agent, the advice of quitting if you don't get what you want, I would fire my agent yesterday. If this is the decision of a what looks to be extremely immature player in JP, the agent needs to shake some sense into his client. What should happen if JP is committed is you say I want a trade so please do your best to do that but to help, I will sign a 1 yr deal, have it LOADED with incentives, work your ass off and PLAY. He needs to get out of his fantasy world and while the Oilers made mistakes, so did he. He's not a top 6 player yet, he's not even a full time NHLer year. So trading him is going to be difficult if the Oilers want ANY kind of value at all. So the best thing for him to do is shut up, train and play and establish yourself as an NHLer. If he does that and proves he's an NHLer, a trade will happen.

When you look at wanting a fresh start and wanting opportunity, what better place is there in the NHL than the Oilers who have a new management team, an entirely new coaching staff plus a team who are DESPERATE for wingers with any kind of skill. All he has to do is work hard, play somewhat consistently and you have an automatic roster spot. So what this tells me is I think the team is as in the players are tired of his act and he's not welcome. Nobody wants to play with him. Otherwise, if the NHL is your goal, why the hell would you pull a gun out, point it to the Oilers head and say trade me or I am going to Europe. Sign a 1 yr, incentive laden deal while keeping your trade request in.

If I am the Oilers, I try to trade him but if you don't get decent return, call his bluff and let him go to Europe.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 June 2019 08:40]

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739086 is a reply to message #739078 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 10:33

Steve
Messages: 113
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 20 June 2019 07:35

It's not just the GM and coach that matter though. Even more so it's your teammates. How many times did McDavid or Drai refuse to pass to the kid? Even when he was wide open? I saw it more than a few times. With his English issues, I wouldn't be surprised if he was an outcast in the room. It's not like the Oilers have a strong Finnish contingent on the team.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739081 is a reply to message #739016 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 09:51

Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007

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I think it's a combination of bad advice from his agent, overvalue by his handlers, and the poor handling of the asset by the Oilers org that they are in this position.

With absolutely no trade value from a former #4 pick overall, his overstated value on JP and his agent's side is doing nothing to help the player. The common idea is correct, sit or play for the Oilers or in the Oilers organization, or go play in Europe get better and play your way out of town.

Jesse has no leverage there and shame on the Oilers for playing a player who clearly was not ready or able to play a role on the NHL squad.

Go eat some pizza son, because you're not going to play in north america without the Oil.

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739085 is a reply to message #739081 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 10:06

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Rocksteady wrote on Thu, 20 June 2019 09:51

I agree. If he doesn't want to play for the Oilers, that's his decision. They didn't handle him properly but telling the Oilers they won't play for them and if they don't trade him, he's going to Europe is a poor decision. The best thing he could do is play and play well. Sign a 1 yr deal, keep your trade request in which I am sure the Oilers would honor, play well and help make a trade possible. Being mad and saying you are taking your ball and going home because things aren't going your way, only makes it harder to get a deal done.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739087 is a reply to message #739081 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 10:38

mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

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Rocksteady wrote on Thu, 20 June 2019 09:51

Maybe it is because I was ready to move Puljujarvi anyway, but I'm looking to move him. Europe made sense if you were trying to develop him and keep him; if you are looking go improve your club and not act out of spite, you probably make a trade this summer. You don't take lowball offers, but you take a deal that will make your club better.

I don't believe Jesse's market value will increase substantially in Europe, and certainly you run the risk of him not improving at all and losing ANY value he does have now. And the Oilers need NHL wingers now; having a pouting prospect sitting in Europe doesn't help them in any way.

Phone Buffalo about Nylander. Phone Washington about Burakovsky. Phone St. Louis about Fabbri. Phone Winnipeg about Roslovic. Find someone willing go flip prospects, or else package Jesse up with other assets to bring in a Top-6 forward. Improve the club and don't get petty. We've seen that too often over the years with this club.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739095 is a reply to message #739087 ]	Thu, 20 June 2019 12:34

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 20 June 2019 10:38

Rocksteady wrote on Thu, 20 June 2019 09:51

I would be targeting a guy like Burakovsky or Roslovic. You might have a better chance with Burakovsky. He was drafted to be a top 6 player, hasn't lived up to it after 5 seasons with the Caps. Coming off a 3 mill deal but still an RFA. The Caps might be looking to move along and would be looking for cap relief. It would take more than JP, either another pick or prospect because JP isn't a full time NHLer yet but perhaps a swap would benefit both teams. For the Oilers, they would be getting at the very least a bottom 6 NHLer with the potential to move up. The Caps would be getting a cheaper player who maybe can elevate.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739141 is a reply to message #739095 ]	Fri, 21 June 2019 08:52

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

What I find a little baffling when it comes to JP is what seems to be these delusional ideas on his value and what to do with him. Here is what has happened to date that is true. This doesn't take away from the fact that the Oilers didn't develop him properly.
- He's played 3 years of pro hockey and is not a full time NHLer. I am not even talking top 6, I am talking top 12. He's not even a legit 4th liner right now.
- He's told the Oilers he will not play for them no matter what. So whether the Oilers hold on to him or not, he's not helping them what so ever this coming season or seasons to come.
- He was drafted 4th overall but at this point, that doesn't matter. The chances of him ever living up to that are slim. I read on Oilersnation reports from scouts from other teams who aren't sure he is even an NHLer but the high end is a 3rd liner. Maybe he can beat the odds but it sure looks like he was taken way too high regardless of how he was handled.

So apparently the ask is a second round pick. I listened to Rishaug and Nielsen talk about it and they basically said if that is what they can get, it would be better to hold on to him, let him go to Europe and is value will go up by moving and playing well. Here is my question. What if he doesn't play well? No one seems to talk about that. To date he's shown that he is not ready for the NHL at all and he's not a dominate player in the AHL. He's just OK in the AHL. So there is no guarantee he will go over to Europe and light it up. If he goes over the Europe and has a bad year or even just an OK year, his value will get even worse because a lot of European leagues are at best even with the AHL, many are below the AHL. With a second round pick, you can trade for REAL NHLers. With a second round pick, you can put that with something to get rid of a player.

So they need to be careful with this Europe thing because there is no guarantees he will be good over there either.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739145 is a reply to message #739141 ]	Fri, 21 June 2019 09:15

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1703
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

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RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 21 June 2019 08:52

The whole JP situation is just entropy at work. He started as a 4th overall pick, now he's only worth a second rounder, eventually he'll be traded for a conditional 5th. It just part of the natural order of the universe.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739148 is a reply to message #739145 ]	Fri, 21 June 2019 09:20

Jay
Messages: 561
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

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I find it interesting that he waited until now to demand a trade.

Makes me think that he wanted to see what the Org did before making a decision.

He probably noticed that all this "change" is essentially a shuffling of deck chairs in the areas that really matter and decided to bounce.

Can't say I blame him. I wonder if he got the Sourray treatment while in the hospital?

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739181 is a reply to message #739141 ]	Fri, 21 June 2019 15:58

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 21 June 2019 08:52

Selling low again and again and again is not a path to success. Being an Oilers fan over the last several years really should have taught you that.

A second round pick is a far from certain to be an NHL player - Puljujarvi has played in 139 NHL games, and while there's a good argument to be made that the number shouldn't be as high, it's not insignificant. The chances of a 2nd rounder getting to that many games, especially a second rounder picked by the Edmonton Oilers, is not great odds, so you're better off hoping he rebounds. If he doesn't and we never get a second rounder for him and he stays in Europe for the rest of time, then it's not much worse than many a second round pick.

Also, as you've said many times, the organization has badly, badly mishandled Puljujarvi's development. There's a good chance that anyone else who has him next, including Jokerit, will do much better with the player than we have to date, which means more confidence and a chance of rebounding. He could fade in to obscurity, but there's a chance, simply by NOT mishandling him, that you actually see improvement.

Finally, if you always give in any time you're given the slightest pressure and sell for the lowest possible amount, then you're showing future malcontents that all you need to do is put a tiny bit of pressure on the Oilers and they'll fold like a lawn chair. Taking a tough stance that we're not doing a deal unless it's a good deal for us is the smart, prudent course of action.

As an aside - in the Kevin Lowe era, the Oilers have had 21 second round picks (we've traded our 2nd rounder off a lot of times actually). Here's the guys who've played more than Puljujarvi (139 games, 37 points):

Jarret Stoll - 2001 - 872 games - 388 points
Greene - 2001 - 615 games - 80 points
Colin McDonald - 2002 - 148 games - 46 points
JF Jacques - 2002 - 166 games - 17 points
Taylor Chorney - 2005 - 166 games - 22 points
Jeff Petry - 2006 - 609 games - 155 points
Anton Lander - 2009 - 215 games - 35 points
Tyler Pitlick - 2010 - 185 games - 53 points
Martin Marincin - 2010 - 201 games - 30 points

Not many who are noticeably better than the player we have, although it's always interesting to see the narrative around different players in Edmonton. Pitlick was Oilers property for seven years, played only 58 games and scored just 14 points for the organization and there was lots of criticism of allowing him to leave - more so than you'll see around Puljujarvi who's much younger, has a much higher ceiling and has shown the organization a lot more in a much shorter timeframe...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739185 is a reply to message #739181 ]	Fri, 21 June 2019 16:28

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3908
Registered: January 2016

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Adam wrote on Fri, 21 June 2019 15:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 21 June 2019 08:52

What's JP worth then?
He was taken 4th overall. It's obvious that regardless of how he was developed, the Oilers scouts and many other scouts from other teams made a mistake in ranking him as high as he was. When you are drafted in the top 5, you should be a star player. Surely to god, you can't think he would be a star player even if the Oilers developed him perfectly. It's not there man. You are never getting a 4th overall pick for him EVER. It's gone.

So what's he worth?

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739188 is a reply to message #739185 ]	Fri, 21 June 2019 16:58

Adam
Messages: 7174
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 21 June 2019 16:28

A) The Oilers didn't make a mistake drafting him. It wasn't a ranking error. That's a consensus top 3 pick and they got him at #4. Your whole narrative on this is dead wrong and I've shown that again and again and again. Remember the posts where I showed several other top five picks that didn't become really good NHLers for 5+ years after their draft? Remember the list of pre-draft rankings where he was never below #3?

B) No one is giving up a fourth overall pick for him, but hey, it was only four years ago that we saw a struggling former fourth overall pick get the 15th and 31st picks for the Islanders...

C) I don't think there's much of a market for Puljujarvi right now. I think you probably can't get much more than a second rounder or a third or fourth line player for him. So I WOULD NOT trade him. There's no rush here to flush the asset.

That's not a good return, he's very young and capable of significant growth yet, and you aren't getting any immediate value from a 2nd round pick anyhow. It's got no better chances of turning in to something, so why just shift the risk - especially since you'd show players that all they need to do to get out is threaten the team that you won't play.

D) Finally look at it from a probability standpoint as if you are a GM. There's four possibilities here:

1. Puljujarvi outperforms 2nd round pick - you look awful. This is actually pretty likely. He's already an NHLer, and with a good organization, probably sees significant improvement. If he gets any powerplay time at all - which makes sense for a big right shot winger - he probably puts up points at a higher rate than he has to now.

2. 2nd round pick outperforms Puljujarvi. You look great...buuuuut it's taken 4-5 years to get there, and many people don't even remember how you acquired the player. If you polled normal Oilers fans (ie not the superfans on this site), I bet you'd find many don't know who we dealt to get the Klefbom pick...and that's a good example. Five years later, it finally started to look like a good trade. It's also not good odds of this scenario happening. The Oilers have literally picked a couple better players than #98 in 20 years worth of 2nd round picks. You've got a 10% chance of this working out, and that's assuming he doesn't rebound somewhere else and play another 15 seasons. If he rebounds and is even a third liner, your chances of outperform drop significantly.

3. Both 2nd round pick and Puljujarvi don't amount to anything. You look meh. The organization still looks bad for flushing yet another promising prospect, and no one remembers the 2nd round pick's name.

4. Both Puljujarvi and the 2nd round pick pan out. You look terrible, because Puljujuarvi is likely to pan out much before 2nd round pick does. People wonder what you were thinking trading him so fast when you could have tried to convince him to come back or let him increase his value first. By the time 2nd round pick is anything, you've already been branded the loser.

The best play, the least risky play, is to keep him now, rather than selling low.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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Re: Puljujarvi wants out. [message #739190 is a reply to message #739188 ]	Fri, 21 June 2019 17:27

mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton

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Adam wrote on Fri, 21 June 2019 16:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 21 June 2019 16:28

Out of curiosity, can you recall any player who has gone to Europe and increased his trade value in the NHL? I truly can't think of an example. I think for managers trading, that's another red flag. For a team developing him, I think Europe is wise; for a team looking to trade him, I'm not as sure. I have trouble seeing managers paying more even if he does do well over there.

I do wish this request had not been made public and they just moved him this summer, because I think going public has really hurt the Oilers, whether they move him now or later.

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