 |
 Jay
Messages: 1341
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton
1 Cup
|
|
| Goose wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 19:10 |
Here's the problem I have with "analysis" like this from guys like Ference: in the 2 seasons that Ference was here the Oilers scored 259 goals at 5x5 and gave up 375, for a differential of -116.
Here are the top 5 forwards by on-ice goal share(GF, GA, GF%), min 500 minutes:
1. Benoit Pouliot - 36/35/50.7%
2. Taylor Hall - 90/93/49.2%
3. Jordan Eberle - 107/116/48.0%
4. RNH - 102/116/46.8%
5. David Perron - 66/82/44.6%
And here's a selection of guys who no doubt "worked hard":
Ryan Smyth - 19/39/39.6%
Boyd Gordon - 34/58/37.0%
Luke Gazdic - 12/33/34.2%
Matt Hendricks- 20/44/31.3%
And of course Ference comes in at 75/111/40.3%.
So when Ference says that guys didn't work hard in practice, and is presumably talking about guys like Hall and Eberle, my question is, then what the hell was Ference doing? Based on these numbers there seems to be zero correlation between the type of hard work that Ference is talking about and actual performance. So then what's the point? And Eberle and Hall had to achieve those results dragging Ference and the rest of one of the worst defence corps in the history of the NHL around the ice all night.
Taylor Hall was -3 in goal differential over that period. The rest of the team managed to be -113 when he wasn't on the ice. And somehow Hall was the problem?
Numbers from Naturalstattrick.com
http://naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20132 014&thruseason=20142015&stype=2&sit=5v5&scor e=all&stdoi=oi&rate=n&team=EDM&pos=S&loc =B&toi=500&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&a mp;a mp;a mp;lines=single
ETA: Before anyone suggests I'm saying things like working hard dont matter, they do. But performance in hockey is measured by one of two things: your ability to either contribute to your team putting the puck in the net or to prevent the other team from doing so. If you cant do either of those two things then the rest is just noise and is orders of magnitude less important than on ice ability.
CrudeRemarks mentioned Pronger. I would argue that Prongsr changed the culture of this team because he played 30 dominant minutes a night, not because he changed out the equipment in the weight room. If Ference had come in and done everything that Pronger had done but was still Andrew Ference, the Oilers are still getting killed during those two years.
I'll just finish by reiterating that hard work as defined by ference is meaningless since it doesn't translate to results. And to say that Hall and Eberle didnt work hard just comes off as bitter to me.
And I'll say that there are definitely "intangibles" that can help teams win. I also think that NHL teams have no clue how to identify or measure them, which is how you end up with Milan Lucic for 4 more years
|
You seem to be saying that Ference and other bad players were not as effective as Hall and other good players? Is anyone debating that? Even Ference isn't denying that.
I think the bigger takeaway is that these guys (Lets call them Jaylor and Tordan since no names were mentioned) were able to get the results on the ice that you mentioned while still living the party lifestyle and - I don't think its really up for debate at this point - not committing to the overall good of the team.
You don't think that with that skill level and an attitude conducive to commitment to hockey off the ice that it would have made them and the team significantly better?? Off course the on ice game product is what counts. But you can't honestly think that they are mutually exclusive.
Ive never understood this. I made the same argument at the time when these guys were here and partying their faces off and everyone was just like 'well they are 20 year old millionaires and the 80s Oilers did it so its all good'...It has nothing to do with anything. If you decide to party and drink till 5 am you will be worse at hockey than if you commit to training and living a healthy lifestyle. Is this actually a controversial stance?
I'm not sure why its unreasonable to expect these guys to behave to a higher standard than the average 20 year old given their profession and the compensation they are getting.
But ultimately I'll say now what I said at the time. The players doing it is one thing. The players being allowed to get away with it again and again and again, rinse and repeat, is another. I love articles like this where players come and say what some of us here have been saying for years and actually shine a spot light on the dysfunction in this organization. And we all know where the buck stops - but hey he knows about winning so there is that.
"Initiative comes to thems that wait"
|
|
|
|
Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Steve on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:51 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Jakey on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:46 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:52 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: NetBOG on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:18 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:02 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:18 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:14 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Magnum on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:51 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:33 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: NetBOG on Tue, 11 December 2018 18:38 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Goose on Tue, 11 December 2018 18:59 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: K.McC#24 on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:20 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: JPro on Mon, 10 December 2018 16:40 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Goose on Mon, 10 December 2018 19:10 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:24 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Jay on Tue, 11 December 2018 08:22 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 08:44 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Goose on Tue, 11 December 2018 09:12 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Jay on Tue, 11 December 2018 10:00 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Mon, 10 December 2018 20:48 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Mon, 10 December 2018 21:58 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Mon, 10 December 2018 21:51 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: nullterm on Tue, 11 December 2018 00:37 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Jay on Tue, 11 December 2018 08:36 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 09:54 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: smyth260 on Mon, 10 December 2018 22:29 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: stotto on Tue, 11 December 2018 06:01 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Tue, 11 December 2018 10:06 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
|
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:14 |
|
Nuge counters |
By: Daftmonk on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:52 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: Jay on Wed, 12 December 2018 09:31 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
|
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 11 December 2018 19:21 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
|
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 20:56 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:15 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
|
|
Re: Nuge counters |
|
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:47 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
|
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: K.McC#24 on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:55 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
|
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 21:58 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: smyth260 on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:20 |
|
Re: Nuge counters |
By: Adam on Tue, 11 December 2018 22:38 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Adam on Wed, 12 December 2018 11:01 |
|
Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers |
By: Kr55 on Wed, 12 December 2018 11:55 |
