Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:00

ziltoid wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:52 Goose wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:27 Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 09:21 I think the point is clear though - he doesn't think Larsson is enough of a return for Taylor Hall. That seems to be an across the board belief. The guy in the video beside Dreger (is that Button?) is defending the move, but once again he says "Obviously Taylor Hall is the better player". I've heard Button defend his record as GM saying he lost trades to make his team better so maybe he's feeling for Chiarelli right now. Of course, Button was a horrible GM too...soooo... Does anyone reasonable think that it's good return though? My issue isn't with not liking the trade, it's the level of piling on that's going on that bothers me. I want to see thoughtful, well constructed arguments about what Larsson is or isn't and what this means for the Oilers. Not bloggers whining that this is the worst trade of the salary cap era, or saying that Larsson is worse than a guy that the Blackhawks put on buyout waivers (David Rundblad), or filler like Yost posted. I would also like to add in the narrative that you can't give up the best player in the deal and become a better team overall. That one drives me particularly mad. Watch me do it right now: I trade the entire Oilers Roster minus Lander to Pittsburg for their entire roster minus Crosby. Pittsburgh gets the best player in McDavid, but the new Oilers team will be better than they were before... unless of course you believe the Oilers current roster is better than the reigning cup champion's roster (or that Malkin is better than McDavid). Hell, you could make the same trade with ANY of the playoff teams (our entire roster minus our worst player for their entire roster minus their best player) and we would STILL be a better team (last I checked, we've been out of the playoffs for a while). Now, I don't know if we are a better team with Larsson than with Hall -- that will play itself out over the course of the season -- but I do THINK we will be better off with Larsson for a variety of reasons (0% of which surround Hall's character, FYI). Little easier to suggest you can win while giving up the best player when you get more than a single worse player back (not a bad player, but worse than what you gave up). I heard them talking on the radio about how we've balanced the defence. We've added a single guy, who's not elite. I don't think it's that much better yet. Our offence will be worse, because we've taken a driver out of the lineup and have added no other driver to replace him.

True. Most of the commentary out there trying to justify the value lost vs value gained in the trade, comes down to having to believe Larsson will be better, and can be an impactful No.1 D-man.

I'm not a fan of Button, but he thinks Larsson will never be a top 2 NHL defenseman, he's going to be a 3/4 defenseman, and doesn't expect to see any more offense from him than what he produced in NJ. He says he's watched him from junior through the SEL, to the NHL, so he has some background on the guy, more than most.

He says we'll still need No.1/2 D-men. If true we don't have any more ammo to get one, shot the wad with T. Hall... oh we still have McD, maybe we can pry Morgan Rielly loose from Toronto. ;)

Also says he doesn't see Sekera as anything more than an NHL No.4 defenseman (I tend to agree).

If true, next season may not be so rosy as some have hoped, me included.

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-1260/audio/button-i-don-t-t hink-larsson-is-a-top-two-guy-1.521061

[Updated on: Tue, 05 July 2016 13:16]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 13:12

Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:00 ziltoid wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:52 Goose wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:27 Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 09:21 I think the point is clear though - he doesn't think Larsson is enough of a return for Taylor Hall. That seems to be an across the board belief. The guy in the video beside Dreger (is that Button?) is defending the move, but once again he says "Obviously Taylor Hall is the better player". I've heard Button defend his record as GM saying he lost trades to make his team better so maybe he's feeling for Chiarelli right now. Of course, Button was a horrible GM too...soooo... Does anyone reasonable think that it's good return though? My issue isn't with not liking the trade, it's the level of piling on that's going on that bothers me. I want to see thoughtful, well constructed arguments about what Larsson is or isn't and what this means for the Oilers. Not bloggers whining that this is the worst trade of the salary cap era, or saying that Larsson is worse than a guy that the Blackhawks put on buyout waivers (David Rundblad), or filler like Yost posted. I would also like to add in the narrative that you can't give up the best player in the deal and become a better team overall. That one drives me particularly mad. Watch me do it right now: I trade the entire Oilers Roster minus Lander to Pittsburg for their entire roster minus Crosby. Pittsburgh gets the best player in McDavid, but the new Oilers team will be better than they were before... unless of course you believe the Oilers current roster is better than the reigning cup champion's roster (or that Malkin is better than McDavid). Hell, you could make the same trade with ANY of the playoff teams (our entire roster minus our worst player for their entire roster minus their best player) and we would STILL be a better team (last I checked, we've been out of the playoffs for a while). Now, I don't know if we are a better team with Larsson than with Hall -- that will play itself out over the course of the season -- but I do THINK we will be better off with Larsson for a variety of reasons (0% of which surround Hall's character, FYI). Little easier to suggest you can win while giving up the best player when you get more than a single worse player back (not a bad player, but worse than what you gave up). I heard them talking on the radio about how we've balanced the defence. We've added a single guy, who's not elite. I don't think it's that much better yet. Our offence will be worse, because we've taken a driver out of the lineup and have added no other driver to replace him. True. Most of the commentary out there trying to justify the value lost vs value gained in the trade, comes down to having to believe Larsson will be better, and can be an impactful No.1 D-man. I'm not a fan of Button, but he thinks Larsson will never be a top 2 NHL defenseman, he's going to be a 3/4 defenseman, and doesn't expect to see any more offense from him than what he produced in NJ. He says he's watched him from junior through the SEL, to the NHL, so he has some background on the guy, more than most. He says we'll still need No.1/2 D-men. If true we don't have any more ammo to get one, shot the wad with T. Hall... oh we still have McD, maybe we can pry Morgan Rielly loose from Toronto. ;) Also says he doesn't see Sekera as anything more than an NHL No.4 defenseman (I tend to agree). If true, next season may not be so rosy as some have hoped, me included. http://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-1260/audio/button-i-don-t-t hink-larsson-is-a-top-two-guy-1.521061

Keep in mind Button has a flames bias cause of his brother and loves to rail on the Oilers any chance he gets. That was very entertaining them his bashing was directed at Eakins, but less enjoyable in this case. He also said Jankowski was an awesome pick by the flames :)

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 12:21

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 13:12 Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:00 ziltoid wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:52 Goose wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:27 Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 09:21 I think the point is clear though - he doesn't think Larsson is enough of a return for Taylor Hall. That seems to be an across the board belief. The guy in the video beside Dreger (is that Button?) is defending the move, but once again he says "Obviously Taylor Hall is the better player". I've heard Button defend his record as GM saying he lost trades to make his team better so maybe he's feeling for Chiarelli right now. Of course, Button was a horrible GM too...soooo... Does anyone reasonable think that it's good return though? My issue isn't with not liking the trade, it's the level of piling on that's going on that bothers me. I want to see thoughtful, well constructed arguments about what Larsson is or isn't and what this means for the Oilers. Not bloggers whining that this is the worst trade of the salary cap era, or saying that Larsson is worse than a guy that the Blackhawks put on buyout waivers (David Rundblad), or filler like Yost posted. I would also like to add in the narrative that you can't give up the best player in the deal and become a better team overall. That one drives me particularly mad. Watch me do it right now: I trade the entire Oilers Roster minus Lander to Pittsburg for their entire roster minus Crosby. Pittsburgh gets the best player in McDavid, but the new Oilers team will be better than they were before... unless of course you believe the Oilers current roster is better than the reigning cup champion's roster (or that Malkin is better than McDavid). Hell, you could make the same trade with ANY of the playoff teams (our entire roster minus our worst player for their entire roster minus their best player) and we would STILL be a better team (last I checked, we've been out of the playoffs for a while). Now, I don't know if we are a better team with Larsson than with Hall -- that will play itself out over the course of the season -- but I do THINK we will be better off with Larsson for a variety of reasons (0% of which surround Hall's character, FYI). Little easier to suggest you can win while giving up the best player when you get more than a single worse player back (not a bad player, but worse than what you gave up). I heard them talking on the radio about how we've balanced the defence. We've added a single guy, who's not elite. I don't think it's that much better yet. Our offence will be worse, because we've taken a driver out of the lineup and have added no other driver to replace him. True. Most of the commentary out there trying to justify the value lost vs value gained in the trade, comes down to having to believe Larsson will be better, and can be an impactful No.1 D-man. I'm not a fan of Button, but he thinks Larsson will never be a top 2 NHL defenseman, he's going to be a 3/4 defenseman, and doesn't expect to see any more offense from him than what he produced in NJ. He says he's watched him from junior through the SEL, to the NHL, so he has some background on the guy, more than most. He says we'll still need No.1/2 D-men. If true we don't have any more ammo to get one, shot the wad with T. Hall... oh we still have McD, maybe we can pry Morgan Rielly loose from Toronto. ;) Also says he doesn't see Sekera as anything more than an NHL No.4 defenseman (I tend to agree). If true, next season may not be so rosy as some have hoped, me included. http://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-1260/audio/button-i-don-t-t hink-larsson-is-a-top-two-guy-1.521061 Remember this? Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 03 March 2016 20:12 That's why Button is still working for TSN and not in management, he makes some real stinker player evaluations, his draft rankings are probably used by NHL teams to pick in the reverse order!

Ha! hey I qualified it by saying "I'm not a fan.." :).. but on the other side, I can be pretty sure he's not in the Oilers pocket. If he's right though, next season looks bleak. I think he's right about that Nurse can progress to a top 2 defenseman, he has NHL level elite skating and was the PP leader in junior. That's how everyone else gets No.1 D-men, they draft and develop.

[Updated on: Tue, 05 July 2016 13:44]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 12:46

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 13:41 NZ Oiler Fan wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 12:21 Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 13:12 Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:00 ziltoid wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:52 Goose wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:27 Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 09:21 I think the point is clear though - he doesn't think Larsson is enough of a return for Taylor Hall. That seems to be an across the board belief. The guy in the video beside Dreger (is that Button?) is defending the move, but once again he says "Obviously Taylor Hall is the better player". I've heard Button defend his record as GM saying he lost trades to make his team better so maybe he's feeling for Chiarelli right now. Of course, Button was a horrible GM too...soooo... Does anyone reasonable think that it's good return though? My issue isn't with not liking the trade, it's the level of piling on that's going on that bothers me. I want to see thoughtful, well constructed arguments about what Larsson is or isn't and what this means for the Oilers. Not bloggers whining that this is the worst trade of the salary cap era, or saying that Larsson is worse than a guy that the Blackhawks put on buyout waivers (David Rundblad), or filler like Yost posted. I would also like to add in the narrative that you can't give up the best player in the deal and become a better team overall. That one drives me particularly mad. Watch me do it right now: I trade the entire Oilers Roster minus Lander to Pittsburg for their entire roster minus Crosby. Pittsburgh gets the best player in McDavid, but the new Oilers team will be better than they were before... unless of course you believe the Oilers current roster is better than the reigning cup champion's roster (or that Malkin is better than McDavid). Hell, you could make the same trade with ANY of the playoff teams (our entire roster minus our worst player for their entire roster minus their best player) and we would STILL be a better team (last I checked, we've been out of the playoffs for a while). Now, I don't know if we are a better team with Larsson than with Hall -- that will play itself out over the course of the season -- but I do THINK we will be better off with Larsson for a variety of reasons (0% of which surround Hall's character, FYI). Little easier to suggest you can win while giving up the best player when you get more than a single worse player back (not a bad player, but worse than what you gave up). I heard them talking on the radio about how we've balanced the defence. We've added a single guy, who's not elite. I don't think it's that much better yet. Our offence will be worse, because we've taken a driver out of the lineup and have added no other driver to replace him. True. Most of the commentary out there trying to justify the value lost vs value gained in the trade, comes down to having to believe Larsson will be better, and can be an impactful No.1 D-man. I'm not a fan of Button, but he thinks Larsson will never be a top 2 NHL defenseman, he's going to be a 3/4 defenseman, and doesn't expect to see any more offense from him than what he produced in NJ. He says he's watched him from junior through the SEL, to the NHL, so he has some background on the guy, more than most. He says we'll still need No.1/2 D-men. If true we don't have any more ammo to get one, shot the wad with T. Hall... oh we still have McD, maybe we can pry Morgan Rielly loose from Toronto. ;) Also says he doesn't see Sekera as anything more than an NHL No.4 defenseman (I tend to agree). If true, next season may not be so rosy as some have hoped, me included. http://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-1260/audio/button-i-don-t-t hink-larsson-is-a-top-two-guy-1.521061 Remember this? Skookum Jim wrote on Thu, 03 March 2016 20:12 That's why Button is still working for TSN and not in management, he makes some real stinker player evaluations, his draft rankings are probably used by NHL teams to pick in the reverse order! Ha! hey I qualified it by saying "I'm not a fan.." :).. but on the other side, I can be pretty sure he's not in the Oilers pocket. If he's right though, next season looks bleak. I think he's right about that Nurse can progress to a top 2 defenseman, he has NHL level elite skating and was the PP leader in junior. That's how everyone else gets No.1 D-men, they draft and develop. Just bugging :) i think Larsson is the best defenseman we've had since pre-injury Whitney and is absolutely a top pairing guy. Mind you, the bar for being our best defenseman in the past 10 years isn't set terribly high...

You are probably correct, but as you say pre-injury Whitney is setting the bar pretty low, especially for trading our best player before we lucked out and landed McD. I think what Button was saying that Larsson might be an Oiler top 2, but not an NHL top 2.

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

ziltoid wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:52

Goose wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 10:27 Adam wrote on Tue, 05 July 2016 09:21 I think the point is clear though - he doesn't think Larsson is enough of a return for Taylor Hall. That seems to be an across the board belief. The guy in the video beside Dreger (is that Button?) is defending the move, but once again he says "Obviously Taylor Hall is the better player". I've heard Button defend his record as GM saying he lost trades to make his team better so maybe he's feeling for Chiarelli right now. Of course, Button was a horrible GM too...soooo... Does anyone reasonable think that it's good return though? My issue isn't with not liking the trade, it's the level of piling on that's going on that bothers me. I want to see thoughtful, well constructed arguments about what Larsson is or isn't and what this means for the Oilers. Not bloggers whining that this is the worst trade of the salary cap era, or saying that Larsson is worse than a guy that the Blackhawks put on buyout waivers (David Rundblad), or filler like Yost posted. I would also like to add in the narrative that you can't give up the best player in the deal and become a better team overall. That one drives me particularly mad. Watch me do it right now: I trade the entire Oilers Roster minus Lander to Pittsburg for their entire roster minus Crosby. Pittsburgh gets the best player in McDavid, but the new Oilers team will be better than they were before... unless of course you believe the Oilers current roster is better than the reigning cup champion's roster (or that Malkin is better than McDavid). Hell, you could make the same trade with ANY of the playoff teams (our entire roster minus our worst player for their entire roster minus their best player) and we would STILL be a better team (last I checked, we've been out of the playoffs for a while). Now, I don't know if we are a better team with Larsson than with Hall -- that will play itself out over the course of the season -- but I do THINK we will be better off with Larsson for a variety of reasons (0% of which surround Hall's character, FYI).

THat's a fun concept.

How about if you had 9 Crosby's and your D had 4 Nikitins.

Which team would be better?

Crosby Crosby Crosby
Crosby Crosby Crosby
Crosby Crosby Crosby
Lucic RNH Ebs

Klefbom Nikitin
Sekera Nikitin
Nikitin Nikitin

Or

Crosby Crosby Crosby
Crosby Crosby Ebs
Lucic Crosby Crosby
Pouliot RNH Yak

Klefbom Larsson
Sekera Barrie
Nikitin Nikitin

If you traded 2 of your Crosby's for Larsson and Barrie horribly losing in both deals :)

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

When you get all set to watch the game, and within 10 minutes the Oilers are losing:

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

[Updated on: Tue, 05 July 2016 11:44]

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

[Updated on: Mon, 11 July 2016 06:40]

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

[Updated on: Mon, 11 July 2016 16:11]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

[Updated on: Tue, 12 July 2016 09:37]

Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 02 June 2012 00:29

But he (Belanger)'s as soft as room temp. margarine.

Skookum Jim wrote on Tue, 16 March 2021 18:49

Turris in the BOA will be like an ice cube in the Sahara.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

Another analysis of Larsson. Still looking for the analysis from someone (other than the Oilers) that says this guy is a No.1 NHL defense-man, and not the second coming of Ladi Smid. In fact, as I recall Smid was heralded as a "future" a top pairing D-man as well when they traded away Chris F'ing Pronger.
I'm getting sick of the people running/ruining this franchise.

Shero looking like GM of the year.

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/ cult-of-hockey-an-in-depth-look-at-adam-larssons-game-by-gue st-analyst-cory-west

Quote:

I reviewed 13 random games from the 2015/2016 season and I think the results are somewhat interesting. I used games spread throughout the season and looked at some wins, losses and even a blow out of a game. The two most important takeaways from my review of Larsson and the devils are, firstly, Andy Greene is really, really good. As the incomparable Mike Johnson of Sportsnet said, “ I don’t often search out New Jersey Devil games” and I think most fans can say this but really this is a shame because Andy Greene is a gem. Secondly, the Devils play with a defensive zone structure that a handful of Oiler coaches and former coaches only can dream about. Training camp is going to be a shock for Mr. Larsson. However, if you’re reading a blog post on the Oilers you probably were not shocked by those synopsis of the Devils and you’re probably far more interested in Larsson than his former team but I think those points are worth reconsidering especially in the context of Larsson. So what is Larsson? Well, this is where things get interesting. Chiarelli has mentioned he is not sexy and after 13 games worth of shifts I am not sure that does him justice. I like all defensemen to be able to move the puck at some level. The days are gone of having a pylon out there that rings the puck off the glass and out every time he gets it. Larsson is not a puck mover. I don’t believe anyone can debate this. Much like blogger Mo “WheatNOil’ Sarda has pointed out in the mildly successful Sekera/Fayne pairing, the puck moving on the Greene/Larsson combo is almost entirely on Greene. I anticipate this is because Greene moves the puck very well, and Larsson isn’t great at this. In fact, I would be willing to bet that Adam Larsson’s now well documented, large percentage of defensive-zone starts is because the Devils simply have better options moving the puck in and around the offensive and neutral zones. Larsson has been said to have a good shot, and perhaps that is the case but he seldom (read never) gets it off in time and I think this really limits him. I hate seeing defensemen that don’t look up when shooting. If you can tell me how many eyelets are on your skates when after you take a shot then you aren’t going to be on my team for long and Larsson displayed this trait quite a bit late in the season. I actually can’t remember seeing a defenseman shoot the puck into so many bodies. (worse than the "Shin Assasin" Sekera?) Fellow New Jersey d-man Damon Severson is clearly superior at this and I would say John Moore and David Schlemko are also more offensively aware, and this is why Larsson doesn’t see many O-zone faceoffs.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 July 2016 03:50]

McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!! (Thank you Lord!)
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

[Updated on: Wed, 13 July 2016 08:43]