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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #652710 is a reply to message #652705 ]
Tue, 12 May 2015 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
Registered: November 2002
Location: Edmonton
No Cups
And here's why Iveson isn't too worried about 32 Million...

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x164/coldrsx/coldrsx081/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-12%20at%201.08.57%20PM_zps3ahsexne.pnghttp://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x164/coldrsx/coldrsx081/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-12%20at%201.09.05%20PM_zpspk4boyms.png

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #652712 is a reply to message #652710 ]
Tue, 12 May 2015 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rocksteady is currently offline Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007
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feepa wrote on Tue, 12 May 2015 15:42

And here's why Iveson isn't too worried about 32 Million...



At this rate with the more than expected revenue coming in with the already announced projects the 32M shortfall is literally a drop in the bucket.

[Updated on: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:09]

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #652716 is a reply to message #652712 ]
Tue, 12 May 2015 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver
1 Cup
Yup. Just keep ignoring the fact that there is a ton of evidence that schemes like the CRL don't actually generate new tax revenues, they just shift them from other parts of the city, and keep gifting more money to Katz.

Quote:

Economists Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist have examined the issue in depth and argued that, as a general rule, sports facilities attract neither tourists nor new industry.


https://www.stlouisfed.org/Publications/Regional-Economist/A pril-2001/Should-Cities-Pay-for-Sports-Facilities

The crazy thing is the City's own worst case scenario contemplates that the property values might actually drop due to the higher vacancy rates created by the glut of new building, but then they magically recover by 2019 to increase revenues by the $32 million necessary to cover the funding shortfall. Amazing.

Quote:

Yet the city’s own “worst-case scenario” envisions that the glut of new downtown office space might actually cause a major drop in property values over the next three years. Still, even that gloomy forecast is based on the premise that values will recover and start to grow by 2019, giving the fund a comfortable $32-million surplus.


http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Simons+Arena+funding+puts+hoo k/11041912/story.html

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #652728 is a reply to message #652716 ]
Wed, 13 May 2015 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rocksteady is currently offline Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007
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Goose wrote on Tue, 12 May 2015 17:25

Yup. Just keep ignoring the fact that there is a ton of evidence that schemes like the CRL don't actually generate new tax revenues, they just shift them from other parts of the city, and keep gifting more money to Katz.

Quote:

Economists Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist have examined the issue in depth and argued that, as a general rule, sports facilities attract neither tourists nor new industry.


https://www.stlouisfed.org/Publications/Regional-Economist/A pril-2001/Should-Cities-Pay-for-Sports-Facilities

The crazy thing is the City's own worst case scenario contemplates that the property values might actually drop due to the higher vacancy rates created by the glut of new building, but then they magically recover by 2019 to increase revenues by the $32 million necessary to cover the funding shortfall. Amazing.

Quote:

Yet the city’s own “worst-case scenario” envisions that the glut of new downtown office space might actually cause a major drop in property values over the next three years. Still, even that gloomy forecast is based on the premise that values will recover and start to grow by 2019, giving the fund a comfortable $32-million surplus.


http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Simons+Arena+funding+puts+hoo k/11041912/story.html


Without wading too much into the debate..

The money isn't there today, agreed. However growth projections by the city and their officials shows the money WILL be. I happen to feel that it will be there as well, Edmonton is on the edge of becoming the leader of this province in terms of growth, the signs are there the cranes in the sky, Edmonton is booming. Let's hope it stays that way with provincial politics. Yes this could turn into a cluster should the projections fall far short, but I think they will not... again it depends on this province's government.

Is it foolish to bet on what's not there - yes, but the arena can't be stopped, and if the shortfall doesn't come from the CRL, it's coming from us. Katz/billionaire thing be damned.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 May 2015 12:03]

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #652734 is a reply to message #652728 ]
Wed, 13 May 2015 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver
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Rocksteady wrote on Wed, 13 May 2015 10:59


Without wading too much into the debate..

The money isn't there today, agreed. However growth projections by the city and their officials shows the money WILL be. I happen to feel that it will be there as well, Edmonton is on the edge of becoming the leader of this province in terms of growth, the signs are there the cranes in the sky, Edmonton is booming. Let's hope it stays that way with provincial politics. Yes this could turn into a cluster should the projections fall far short, but I think they will not... again it depends on this province's government.

Is it foolish to bet on what's not there - yes, but the arena can't be stopped, and if the shortfall doesn't come from the CRL, it's coming from us. Katz/billionaire thing be damned.


That's what I'm saying though, it already is coming from you. The CRL isn't some magic money-generating program. In order for it to do what it says, generate the funds to pay for the arena without affecting the general revenues/expenses of the City, then all of the extra taxes generated from the arena district needs to be revenue that would not have existed without the arena. And there's lots of evidence that that isn't the case. Just thinking about it logically, it makes sense. A business isn't going to suddenly move to Edmonton or hire a whole bunch of new people because the Oilers built a new arena. And there have been lots of studies that people have limited entertainment dollars to spend, and they end up spending them whether new sports arenas are built or not, so you're not generating a whole bunch of new spending because of the arena. You're just concentrating it in one area of the City.

A great example of this is Katz's new office tower inside the CRL. He has a deal with the City that will see 2/3 of all City employees move into his new tower. Those 2000 employees are currently housed in 9 buildings across downtown. So the value of Katz's tower in the CRL goes up and tax revenues in the CRL get a boost. But what happens to the property values of those 9 other buildings now that they have large vacancies? So tax revenue in other parts of the City goes down and the whole thing ends up basically being a wash. Which means that no new tax revenues for the City and the arena payment is basically paid for by existing revenues, meaning the residents of Edmonton are all on the hook.

And even if those other buildings do manage to fill their vacancies, it's a pretty big leap to suggest that they did so solely because the arena district somehow attracted new businesses to Edmonton.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/02/06/edmonton-employees-hou sed-by-katz-group-by-2016

You can make an argument that you are in favour of the City paying for the arena because you think it will be a great venue and worth the cost. City's build museums and art spaces and things like that all the time. Generally, they don't build them for the sole economic benefit of one person, but that's besides the point. But I don't think that anyone can seriously make the argument that the $300-ish million that the City is now contributing to this thing will somehow not cost the residents of Edmonton anything.


Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #652751 is a reply to message #652734 ]
Wed, 13 May 2015 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG is currently offline NetBOG
Messages: 2951
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
2 Cups
Goose wrote on Wed, 13 May 2015 13:45



That's what I'm saying though, it already is coming from you. The CRL isn't some magic money-generating program. In order for it to do what it says, generate the funds to pay for the arena without affecting the general revenues/expenses of the City, then all of the extra taxes generated from the arena district needs to be revenue that would not have existed without the arena. And there's lots of evidence that that isn't the case. Just thinking about it logically, it makes sense. A business isn't going to suddenly move to Edmonton or hire a whole bunch of new people because the Oilers built a new arena. And there have been lots of studies that people have limited entertainment dollars to spend, and they end up spending them whether new sports arenas are built or not, so you're not generating a whole bunch of new spending because of the arena. You're just concentrating it in one area of the City.

A great example of this is Katz's new office tower inside the CRL. He has a deal with the City that will see 2/3 of all City employees move into his new tower. Those 2000 employees are currently housed in 9 buildings across downtown. So the value of Katz's tower in the CRL goes up and tax revenues in the CRL get a boost. But what happens to the property values of those 9 other buildings now that they have large vacancies? So tax revenue in other parts of the City goes down and the whole thing ends up basically being a wash. Which means that no new tax revenues for the City and the arena payment is basically paid for by existing revenues, meaning the residents of Edmonton are all on the hook.

And even if those other buildings do manage to fill their vacancies, it's a pretty big leap to suggest that they did so solely because the arena district somehow attracted new businesses to Edmonton.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/02/06/edmonton-employees-hou sed-by-katz-group-by-2016

You can make an argument that you are in favour of the City paying for the arena because you think it will be a great venue and worth the cost. City's build museums and art spaces and things like that all the time. Generally, they don't build them for the sole economic benefit of one person, but that's besides the point. But I don't think that anyone can seriously make the argument that the $300-ish million that the City is now contributing to this thing will somehow not cost the residents of Edmonton anything.



You mean articles like this:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/commercial-real-esta te/Dominion+Securities+moving+into/11052607/story.html?__lsa =073d-f6f4

which are massively slanted towards how great Katz is and how lucky we are that he acknowledges us, even though buried in the middle is this little tidbit:

Quote:

RBC Dominion Securities currently has its office locations in Edmonton at Commerce Place, Manulife and Oxford towers.


which basically means they are moving from one building within the CRL to another building in the CRL, and adding no money to the CRL.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #653252 is a reply to message #625456 ]
Thu, 21 May 2015 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
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Location: Edmonton
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFdkSCkXIAAD7lT.jpg
https://twitter.com/DanRodgers2014/status/601059349046366210 /photo/1

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #653253 is a reply to message #653252 ]
Thu, 21 May 2015 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ragnarok73 is currently offline Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
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2 Cups
Damn, Edmonton looks so flat from that viewpoint. It's still a great shot of the city and arena, though.

"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

5-14-6-1

"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #653258 is a reply to message #653253 ]
Thu, 21 May 2015 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
Registered: November 2002
Location: Edmonton
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Most places look pretty flat when your that high up.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #653427 is a reply to message #625456 ]
Sat, 30 May 2015 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
Registered: November 2002
Location: Edmonton
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Pics from the helicopter shoot

http://www.rogersplace.com/gallery-rogers-place-construction -helicopter-shoot/


Many more like this:


http://www.rogersplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/helishoot1.jpg

[Updated on: Sat, 30 May 2015 13:29]

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #653483 is a reply to message #653427 ]
Tue, 02 June 2015 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
Registered: November 2002
Location: Edmonton
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Dawn of a new era in Oilers land?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGfdt0vVIAAPGiP.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/RobWilliamsCTV

New arena
Connor
New GM
New Coach
New Hope.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #653494 is a reply to message #653483 ]
Tue, 02 June 2015 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently offline Magnum
Messages: 839
Registered: June 2009
Location: Rogers' Arena > Banff
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That roller coaster looks awesome!

2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #653495 is a reply to message #653483 ]
Tue, 02 June 2015 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton
6 Cups
feepa wrote on Tue, 02 June 2015 08:24

Dawn of a new era in Oilers land?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGfdt0vVIAAPGiP.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/RobWilliamsCTV

New arena
Connor
New GM
New Coach
New Hope.


Every arena construction pic needs a McJesus somewhere on it.


http://i.imgur.com/MeliGFm.jpg

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #654889 is a reply to message #625456 ]
Mon, 29 June 2015 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
Registered: November 2002
Location: Edmonton
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Been awhile since I've posted a picture update. Courtesy of Bulliver on C2E

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/350/19089049669_a73e99a506_b.jpg

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3820/18652708074_521ba14307_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/479/19087592630_7f1086c577_b.jpg[/QUOTE]

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #654890 is a reply to message #654889 ]
Mon, 29 June 2015 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIrk2AtUAAAMHja.jpg:medium

https://twitter.com/RogersPlace/status/615555918084714496

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #654893 is a reply to message #654890 ]
Mon, 29 June 2015 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ragnarok73 is currently offline Ragnarok73
Messages: 2419
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2 Cups
That is a sweet aerial shot- it's coming together nicely. Hopefully, the team will become competitive by the time it opens up next year.

"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

5-14-6-1

"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655569 is a reply to message #625456 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ronster is currently offline ronster
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2005
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Looks like the Katz Group is naming the Arena area the Ice District. Cue up the classic Vanilla Ice song!

http://globalnews.ca/video/2106907/edmonton-downtown-arena-a rea-to-be-called-ice-district

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655570 is a reply to message #655569 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Location: Edmonton
6 Cups
ronster wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 13:08

Looks like the Katz Group is naming the Arena area the Ice District. Cue up the classic Vanilla Ice song!

http://globalnews.ca/video/2106907/edmonton-downtown-arena-a rea-to-be-called-ice-district


Before every game:



I don't mind it. Little bit cheesy, but it's usually either a little cheesy or dull with these kinds of things.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655571 is a reply to message #655570 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm is currently offline nullterm
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I might be the minority, but really dislike the name. Too general, doesn't say anything other than "cold."

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655572 is a reply to message #655569 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG is currently offline NetBOG
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ronster wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 13:08

Looks like the Katz Group is naming the Arena area the Ice District. Cue up the classic Vanilla Ice song!

http://globalnews.ca/video/2106907/edmonton-downtown-arena-a rea-to-be-called-ice-district


It's not "the Ice District", just "Ice District"

That's an order direct from Katz.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655573 is a reply to message #655572 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
Messages: 10777
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton
6 Cups
NetBOG wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 15:03

ronster wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 13:08

Looks like the Katz Group is naming the Arena area the Ice District. Cue up the classic Vanilla Ice song!

http://globalnews.ca/video/2106907/edmonton-downtown-arena-a rea-to-be-called-ice-district


It's not "the Ice District", just "Ice District"

That's an order direct from Katz.


And Lowe would like to remind everyone again that MacT was never fired as head coach, he stepped down.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655574 is a reply to message #655573 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 15:07

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 15:03

ronster wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 13:08

Looks like the Katz Group is naming the Arena area the Ice District. Cue up the classic Vanilla Ice song!

http://globalnews.ca/video/2106907/edmonton-downtown-arena-a rea-to-be-called-ice-district


It's not "the Ice District", just "Ice District"

That's an order direct from Katz.


And Lowe would like to remind everyone again that MacT was never fired as head coach, he stepped down.

I'm just going to call it "An Ice District" and assume other Ice Districts exist. Which Ice District are you going to? One of them.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655580 is a reply to message #655574 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm is currently offline nullterm
Messages: 1034
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Location: Port Moody, BC
1 Cup
CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 14:24

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 15:07

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 15:03

ronster wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 13:08

Looks like the Katz Group is naming the Arena area the Ice District. Cue up the classic Vanilla Ice song!

http://globalnews.ca/video/2106907/edmonton-downtown-arena-a rea-to-be-called-ice-district


It's not "the Ice District", just "Ice District"

That's an order direct from Katz.


And Lowe would like to remind everyone again that MacT was never fired as head coach, he stepped down.

I'm just going to call it "An Ice District" and assume other Ice Districts exist. Which Ice District are you going to? One of them.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJ0CkCaVEAAGQxv.jpg

Reminds me of when MS was launching the Xbox One and telling everyone they can never refer to it as the Xbone.

... Xbone is the only way people referred to it after that.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655575 is a reply to message #625456 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver
1 Cup
Pretty funny take from John Oliver on publicly funded arenas. Not everything he talks about applies to the Edmonton situation but I thought I would post anyways. The most interesting part to me was the Miami Marlins claiming poverty (as almost every sports franchise does, including the Oilers) and then it being leaked that they actually had over $50M in operating income over the past two years. I never really bought Katz' claim that the Oilers were losing tens of millions a year. Not with a packed house and the Canadian dollar basically at par for most of the past several years.



Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655576 is a reply to message #655575 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
Messages: 408
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Location: Edmonton
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In case this blows up in to a funding discussion, remember the facts:

The funding deal:
$130 million: Katz Group lease and cash
$125 million: ticket tax
$120 million: community revitalization levy (a city loan repaid by future property tax from new downtown development)
$80 million: parking revenue and other city sources
$25 million: Edmonton regional collaboration grant
City also pays: $79 million through levy for land, pedestrian connection, LRT link, winter garden, community rink


Our deal really is the exception of everything discussed in Oliver's video as we're projecting a $400 million surplus for the city because of this deal: http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/05/12/edmonton-mayor-hopes-c rl-will-make-up-arena-million-dollar-shortfall

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655578 is a reply to message #655576 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 18:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
Messages: 1098
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Location: Vancouver
1 Cup
feepa wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 16:10

In case this blows up in to a funding discussion, remember the facts:

The funding deal:
$130 million: Katz Group lease and cash
$125 million: ticket tax
$120 million: community revitalization levy (a city loan repaid by future property tax from new downtown development)
$80 million: parking revenue and other city sources
$25 million: Edmonton regional collaboration grant
City also pays: $79 million through levy for land, pedestrian connection, LRT link, winter garden, community rink


Our deal really is the exception of everything discussed in Oliver's video as we're projecting a $400 million surplus for the city because of this deal: http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/05/12/edmonton-mayor-hopes-c rl-will-make-up-arena-million-dollar-shortfall


I've posted numerous studies that show that schemes like the CRL are basically accounting tricks that simply shift tax dollars around and don't actually generate new revenues. I guess we can agree to disagree on that point, but I have yet to read one credible study that shows otherwise.

I'm not sure that Edmonton is the exception of everything discussed in the video. We know that Katz claimed to be losing millions, but refused to allow the City to verify that fact.

Quote:

Katz bought the team in 2008 but says he's been losing money ever since. Councillors have not been able to test that claim as the franchise has refused them access to financial data.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643622

We also know that Katz used the threat of moving the team to get a better deal, a scenario that had zero possibility of happening, but I guess is worked. So good for him?

I think that you have to ask yourself the question, if this deal is such a boon for the City and for taxpayers, why would Katz have to resort to such a tactic to get council to sign it. If you can't make a strong enough case for the deal based on it's merits, then maybe it's not such a good deal after all.

And do you really believe that Edmonton is going to be the exception to every other publicly funded arena out there? It's not like CRL's are a new concept that Katz and the City of Edmonton came up with. Sometimes it's called Tax Increment Financing (TIF) or other names, but it's been used (and studied) before.

Look, I understand that everyone is getting excited about the new arena. I am too. I don't want to dampen anyone's excitement, it looks to be a fantastic facility. I no longer live in Edmonton, but I definitely intend to make my way there for a game or two once it's built. I just want to be able to have an honest conversation about who is paying for the arena, and I'll be honest, I'm still pretty angry with Darryl Katz over how he bullied the City into signing this deal.



Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655584 is a reply to message #655578 ]
Tue, 14 July 2015 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
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I'd like to see where Katz ever made threats to move the team. What I recall is Katz visiting other cities like Seattle and Hamilton and Quebec City and many other existing NHL markets to see what's been done.

The way the media spun things is different though. Katz + co never once threatened to move the team anywhere.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655585 is a reply to message #655584 ]
Tue, 14 July 2015 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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feepa wrote on Tue, 14 July 2015 10:43

I'd like to see where Katz ever made threats to move the team. What I recall is Katz visiting other cities like Seattle and Hamilton and Quebec City and many other existing NHL markets to see what's been done.

The way the media spun things is different though. Katz + co never once threatened to move the team anywhere.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers-owner-da ryl-katz-visits-seattle-1.1281994

Quote:

If we can achieve such a deal, the Oilers will remain in Edmonton


It wasn't even a veiled threat. I do believe Katz was bluffing to speed the inevitable along, but the threat was, at the very least, implied.

[Updated on: Tue, 14 July 2015 11:06]

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655586 is a reply to message #655584 ]
Tue, 14 July 2015 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
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feepa wrote on Tue, 14 July 2015 09:43

I'd like to see where Katz ever made threats to move the team. What I recall is Katz visiting other cities like Seattle and Hamilton and Quebec City and many other existing NHL markets to see what's been done.

The way the media spun things is different though. Katz + co never once threatened to move the team anywhere.


What??? The Hamilton arena was built in 1983. What could they possibly hope to learn from that trip about a new arena?

You don't honestly believe that Katz visited Seattle, who was actively looking for an NHL team for their new arena - that hadn't been built,or even approved yet - to see what had been done in other markets. Not to mention the fact that they were building a basketball arena that might be able to accommodate hockey. Maybe not the best example for how to build a new, hockey first facility.

This is a quote from a statement on the Oilers website put out by the Katz group:

Quote:

Nonetheless, and as the City of Edmonton is aware, the Katz Group has been listening to proposals from a number of potential NHL markets for some time. After more than four years of trying to secure an arena deal and with less than 24 months remaining on the Oilers' lease at Rexall Place, this is only prudent and should come as no surprise.


http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=642147

And this from Katz' letter of apology to fans after the Seattle debacle (although I don't know why he would need to apologize if he was just going there to look at arena proposals):

Quote:

“I was upset when certain confidential information was leaked and by comments that I thought were unfair and called my integrity into question,” Katz wrote in the letter. “I reacted by trying to send a message to city leaders that they should not take my support for a new arena for granted."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey /oilers-owner-daryl-katz-apologizes-to-fans-for-seattle-visi t/article4577101/

I'm not sure how else to read that other than a threat to move the team. Unless you are of the opinion that if there wasn't a new arena that Katz would be perfectly happy remaining in Rexall for the next 30 years. Except of course that he explicitly said that wasn't an option:

Quote:

However, the Katz Group insisted that an overhaul of Rexall Place was not an option they were willing to entertain, with Katz Group lawyer John Karvellas stressing: "We do not intend for the Oilers to play in a renovated Rexall Place."


http://www.torontosun.com/news/edmonton/2010/07/21/14782551. html

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655591 is a reply to message #655586 ]
Tue, 14 July 2015 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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(The) Ice District conversation aside, I think the Hamilton visit had more to do with the Erie Otters than the Edmonton Oilers.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655599 is a reply to message #655591 ]
Tue, 14 July 2015 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 14 July 2015 12:54

(The) Ice District conversation aside, I think the Hamilton visit had more to do with the Erie Otters than the Edmonton Oilers.


As for the Ice District name, like it or hate it, I am glad they just chose something. Edmonton is horrible for trying to get consensus from people before doing anything, and it'll never happen. You won't make everyone happy, so pick something and people will either call it that or they won't.

I wish they would have taken that approach with the city slogan before spending millions to decide not to use a slogan at all.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655615 is a reply to message #655599 ]
Tue, 14 July 2015 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently offline Magnum
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I don't know if I like idea. I mean, name is pretty lame to start with, then to warden over grammar that people are going use when saying name, is bit crazy.

Group behind is crazy, I mean what point?

Also, until beginning of season, I am omitting all Articles from my posts. Could make for interesting exercise. http://www.grammar-monster.com/glossary/definite_article.htm

[Updated on: Tue, 14 July 2015 18:50]

2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655657 is a reply to message #655591 ]
Wed, 15 July 2015 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose is currently offline Goose
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 14 July 2015 11:54

(The) Ice District conversation aside, I think the Hamilton visit had more to do with the Erie Otters than the Edmonton Oilers.


Sure, the Erie Otters deal that was intended to give Katz control of the Hamilton lease which he could then use to exert pressure on the City of Edmonton to get a better deal. Allegedly. Probably.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/hockey-lawsuit- exposes-grimy-underside-of-sports-ownership/article22646466/

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #657359 is a reply to message #655578 ]
Tue, 06 October 2015 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG is currently offline NetBOG
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Goose wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 18:35

feepa wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 16:10

In case this blows up in to a funding discussion, remember the facts:

The funding deal:
$130 million: Katz Group lease and cash
$125 million: ticket tax
$120 million: community revitalization levy (a city loan repaid by future property tax from new downtown development)
$80 million: parking revenue and other city sources
$25 million: Edmonton regional collaboration grant
City also pays: $79 million through levy for land, pedestrian connection, LRT link, winter garden, community rink


Our deal really is the exception of everything discussed in Oliver's video as we're projecting a $400 million surplus for the city because of this deal: http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/05/12/edmonton-mayor-hopes-c rl-will-make-up-arena-million-dollar-shortfall


I've posted numerous studies that show that schemes like the CRL are basically accounting tricks that simply shift tax dollars around and don't actually generate new revenues. I guess we can agree to disagree on that point, but I have yet to read one credible study that shows otherwise.

I'm not sure that Edmonton is the exception of everything discussed in the video. We know that Katz claimed to be losing millions, but refused to allow the City to verify that fact.

Quote:

Katz bought the team in 2008 but says he's been losing money ever since. Councillors have not been able to test that claim as the franchise has refused them access to financial data.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643622

We also know that Katz used the threat of moving the team to get a better deal, a scenario that had zero possibility of happening, but I guess is worked. So good for him?

I think that you have to ask yourself the question, if this deal is such a boon for the City and for taxpayers, why would Katz have to resort to such a tactic to get council to sign it. If you can't make a strong enough case for the deal based on it's merits, then maybe it's not such a good deal after all.

And do you really believe that Edmonton is going to be the exception to every other publicly funded arena out there? It's not like CRL's are a new concept that Katz and the City of Edmonton came up with. Sometimes it's called Tax Increment Financing (TIF) or other names, but it's been used (and studied) before.

Look, I understand that everyone is getting excited about the new arena. I am too. I don't want to dampen anyone's excitement, it looks to be a fantastic facility. I no longer live in Edmonton, but I definitely intend to make my way there for a game or two once it's built. I just want to be able to have an honest conversation about who is paying for the arena, and I'll be honest, I'm still pretty angry with Darryl Katz over how he bullied the City into signing this deal.




Now the "Developers" are wanting the city to subsidize all the empty office space that will be created. The city may pay for the arena with a CRL, but where do they recover the tax money from the empty buildings that are left?

http://edmontonjournal.com/business/commercial-real-estate/i ncentives-would-clear-looming-glut-of-edmonton-downtown-offi ce-space-developer

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #657361 is a reply to message #657359 ]
Tue, 06 October 2015 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rocksteady is currently offline Rocksteady
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NetBOG wrote on Tue, 06 October 2015 15:02

Now the "Developers" are wanting the city to subsidize all the empty office space that will be created. The city may pay for the arena with a CRL, but where do they recover the tax money from the empty buildings that are left?



I think you are assuming the vacant space won't be filled, I also don't know if they will be. So let's just wait on this little panic button until the dust settles, okay? Time may surprise you, and then again it may surprise me.

The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.

Generally Disappointed.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #657362 is a reply to message #657361 ]
Tue, 06 October 2015 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Rocksteady wrote on Tue, 06 October 2015 15:21

NetBOG wrote on Tue, 06 October 2015 15:02

Now the "Developers" are wanting the city to subsidize all the empty office space that will be created. The city may pay for the arena with a CRL, but where do they recover the tax money from the empty buildings that are left?



I think you are assuming the vacant space won't be filled, I also don't know if they will be. So let's just wait on this little panic button until the dust settles, okay? Time may surprise you, and then again it may surprise me.



Considering the economy is going to crap and there are already noticeably fewer people working downtown it's a pretty safe bet to say the office vacancy rate is going to go up when these new office spaces come online.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #663831 is a reply to message #657362 ]
Tue, 12 January 2016 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GabbyDugan is currently offline GabbyDugan
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preview of Ice district this coming Saturday, 11 AM to 2PM

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/get-a-sneak-peek- inside-rogers-place-this-saturday

Quote:"The sneak peek goes from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. People should be in line no later than 2 p.m. to enter the facilities, at the entrance at 101st Street and 104th Avenue.

Visitors are urged to take public transit. For people arriving by private vehicles, there is no drop-off zone and they’re advised not to park in residential areas around Rogers Place.

On Saturday, 104th Avenue is closed between 101st and 103rd streets for the event. Drivers can detour using Jasper Avenue, 102nd Avenue or 107th Avenue."unquote/.//


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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655579 is a reply to message #655576 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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feepa wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 17:10

In case this blows up in to a funding discussion, remember the facts:

The funding deal:
$130 million: Katz Group lease and cash
$125 million: ticket tax
$120 million: community revitalization levy (a city loan repaid by future property tax from new downtown development)
$80 million: parking revenue and other city sources
$25 million: Edmonton regional collaboration grant
City also pays: $79 million through levy for land, pedestrian connection, LRT link, winter garden, community rink


Our deal really is the exception of everything discussed in Oliver's video as we're projecting a $400 million surplus for the city because of this deal: http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/05/12/edmonton-mayor-hopes-c rl-will-make-up-arena-million-dollar-shortfall



If Lowe and MacT were still allowed to run the team into the ground and we didn't win McDavid, I'd worry that a some of those numbers were in serious danger of never actually being fulfilled. However, things are looking much better these days :)

[Updated on: Mon, 13 July 2015 18:56]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655581 is a reply to message #655576 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG is currently offline NetBOG
Messages: 2951
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2 Cups
feepa wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 17:10

In case this blows up in to a funding discussion, remember the facts:

The funding deal:
$130 million: Katz Group lease and cash
$125 million: ticket tax
$120 million: community revitalization levy (a city loan repaid by future property tax from new downtown development)
$80 million: parking revenue and other city sources
$25 million: Edmonton regional collaboration grant
City also pays: $79 million through levy for land, pedestrian connection, LRT link, winter garden, community rink


Our deal really is the exception of everything discussed in Oliver's video as we're projecting a $400 million surplus for the city because of this deal: http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/05/12/edmonton-mayor-hopes-c rl-will-make-up-arena-million-dollar-shortfall


Ya, the magic fountain of money known as a CRL works great until this happens:
http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/1421202/edmonton-offices-s eeing-higher-vacancy-rates-as-more-supply-coming-online/

If it's too good to be true .................

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655582 is a reply to message #655581 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 23:47 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Goose is currently offline Goose
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NetBOG wrote on Mon, 13 July 2015 19:53


Ya, the magic fountain of money known as a CRL works great until this happens:
http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/1421202/edmonton-offices-s eeing-higher-vacancy-rates-as-more-supply-coming-online/

If it's too good to be true .................


Well the good news is that Katz' office tower is protected since he forced the City to move nearly all of their staff into his building. So apparently they anticipated this issue and planned for it. I mean, if Katz is taking steps to ensure that his building is full in case demand for new office space isn't what they told us it would be then I'm sure that the rest of the landlords in Edmonton have nothing to worry about right? Right?

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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 Re: New Arena construction! [message #655577 is a reply to message #625456 ]
Mon, 13 July 2015 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
feepa is currently offline feepa
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http://icedistrictproperties.com/upload/gallery_item/39/38c836bc7d40/condo-1.1000.jpg

http://icedistrictproperties.com/upload/gallery_item/40/a9234cbd0326/condo-2.1000.jpg

http://icedistrictproperties.com/upload/gallery_item/41/9ea42b7b7572/condo-3.1000.jpg

http://icedistrictproperties.com/upload/body_image/34/75eb279c4c19/stantec-tower-image.jpg

http://icedistrictproperties.com/upload/gallery_item/65/299535ce8b9c/view05a-low_aerial-day-stamped.1000.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJ0AxbDUYAI6m1k.jpghttp://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x164/coldrsx/coldrsx102/Screen%20Shot%202015-07-13%20at%2012.08.05%20PM_zpsbwpmkdcw.png

All from
http://icedistrictproperties.com

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