| Tkachev ELC Ruled Ineligible [message #632819] |
Tue, 30 September 2014 08:16  |
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 Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007
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UPDATE:
Bob Stauffer Twitter:
Tkachev's deal ineligible. Had he played full season in CHL Oilers could've signed him to ELC after coming to camp on ATO (Amateur Try Out)
Tkachev played 2 games for Omsk (KHL) last season and then waited for his release to play in CHL. Obscure rule..he goes in 2015 Draft
Given that Tkachev's contract has been ruled ineligible logic dictates that he will be released back
to Junior shortly
The rule:
According to the NHL’s Collective Bargaining Agreement, to be eligible to play in the league, a player must have:
(a) had been claimed in the last Entry Draft, or was ineligible for claim under Section
8.4; or
(b) had been eligible for claim in the last Entry Draft, but was unclaimed, and:
ii) had played hockey in North America the prior season and was under age 20 at the time of the last Entry Draft, and signed an SPC which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and commencement of the Major Juniors season (except that if such Player had signed an NHL try-out form, which was signed and registered with the League during the aforesaid time period, then the deadline for signing and registering with the League an SPC with such try-out Club shall be the commencement of the NHL Season).’
Last season, Tkachev only played 20 games with Moncton of the QMJHL (Quebec Major Junior Hockey League). NHL rules state that undrafted players need to play a full season in North America in order to sign an NHL contract if they are undrafted.
...
So that's that.
===Original Message===
The Oilers signed Tkachev last night to an entry level contract as per Mark Spector's twitter
He will be heading to Muncton very soon.
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| Mark Spector's Twitter |
The Edmonton Oilers have agreed to a 3-year entry level deal with the small but skilled Vladimir Tkachev. He'll be heading to Moncton.
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[Updated on: Fri, 03 October 2014 12:17]
The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.
Generally Disappointed.
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Rocksteady
Messages: 527
Registered: March 2007
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The fans have got their wish and signed the skilled but small winger. Here's to hoping he has a magical growth spurt and gains 65lbs.
Also how is it the most unconnected guy in Hockey get's the scoop? I guess with your company being the rights holder you get some sort of inside track.
Me: Hey Spec, what do you think of the signing?
Spec: I don't know, what do you think?
*That guy..
The very definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing expecting different results.
Generally Disappointed.
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Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick
1 Cup
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Great news. Looking forward to watching him live this year. Hopefully he packs on a few pounds this year and makes his way up to Edmuntun closer to 170-180.
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jds308
Messages: 119
Registered: September 2007
Location: Summerland
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| Mike wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 07:39 |
Great news. Looking forward to watching him live this year. Hopefully he packs on a few pounds this year and makes his way up to Edmuntun closer to 170-180.
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I really enjoyed watching him in Pentictun at this years Young Stars Tournamunt.
I make music:
Undermaker442
308 Media Group
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eedok
Messages: 21
Registered: March 2010
Location: Edmonton
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| Mike wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 08:39 |
Great news. Looking forward to watching him live this year. Hopefully he packs on a few pounds this year and makes his way up to Edmuntun closer to 170-180.
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170 is a bit of a stretch, as he seems more built like Steve Sullivan than Martin St Louis
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Hibernia
Messages: 102
Registered: October 1998
Location: Sin John's
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Mike, that's awesume. Very sobtle.
He might get up around 170-180 as an adult, but I wouldn't expect a massive growth spurt from him. I was 145lbs at 18, but sit comfortably at 175 as an adult. Anything more than that and I've either been in the gym waaaaaay too much or waaaaaaay too little.
[Updated on: Tue, 30 September 2014 11:39]
What happened to all of my messages? lol (I guess it's been awhile) BlueSky: StefBarnes
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Mike
Messages: 1397
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick
1 Cup
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| Hibernia wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 14:37 |
Mike, that's awesume. Very sobtle.
He might get up around 170-180 as an adult, but I wouldn't expect a massive growth spurt from him. I was 145lbs at 18, but sit comfortably at 175 as an adult. Anything more than that and I've either been in the gym waaaaaay too much or waaaaaaay too little.
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Hopefully he can grow an inch or 2 - certainly not out of the question at only 18.
As for growth spurts - I was around 125lbs until I was around 25 (wrestled at 56KG, 6' tall). Then BAM - I was a solid 200lbs at 27. People that hadn't seen me in a couple of years didn't recognize me. So it can happen I suppose. But you're right - if he doesn't grow at all, then he likely won't put on that much weight.
Either way, watching last night, he certainly didn't seem out of place in terms of skill.
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smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007
1 Cup
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If the Oilers didn't sign him then I would have assumed they had no intent on doing so in the first place. Can't expect a much better training camp from an 18 year old.
Will be interesting to watch his progression. The odds are stacked against him, only because of his size. Worst case scenario, he is an AHL plug. Best case is he becomes a useful NHLer. Didn't cost us a draft pick, so a very low risk move. Happy they did it.
Clean house or bust
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nullterm
Messages: 1033
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
1 Cup
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Pretty funny interview with Tkachev, Yakupov acting as translator which is funny in itself.
http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=732437
That's the first time I've seen Tkachev not in hockey gear. He looks like 14!
Illegitimi non carborundum.
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RankinSpankin
Messages: 2
Registered: June 2013
Location: Fort McMurray
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Gotta give MacT credit for finding a potential asset out of nowhere
Good signing based on merit.
Like it
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Some reason the Oilers site listing the contract as being ineligible by the NHL? I assume more to follow. 
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Oilertime
Messages: 28
Registered: October 1999
Location: Fort Saskatchewan
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| Iamheretoday wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:51 |
Some reason the Oilers site listing the contract as being ineligible by the NHL? I assume more to follow.
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Going through Twitter, it looks like he's ineligable. Going to have to hope to get in the draft next year.
https://twitter.com/Reggie__11
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spoonful
Messages: 13
Registered: April 2008
Location: Edmonton
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| Oilertime wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:56 |
| Iamheretoday wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:51 |
Some reason the Oilers site listing the contract as being ineligible by the NHL? I assume more to follow.
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Going through Twitter, it looks like he's ineligable. Going to have to hope to get in the draft next year.
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A few years ago I would have been upset about something like this but now I just laugh.
The Edmonton Oilers - "Craig's on it"
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nullterm
Messages: 1033
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
1 Cup
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| spoonful wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:06 |
| Oilertime wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:56 |
| Iamheretoday wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:51 |
Some reason the Oilers site listing the contract as being ineligible by the NHL? I assume more to follow.
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Going through Twitter, it looks like he's ineligable. Going to have to hope to get in the draft next year.
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A few years ago I would have been upset about something like this but now I just laugh.
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Thank you for salvaging some humour from this. I was so angry when I opened twitter and read news... then your post. "Here come the Oilers!"
For the record, I'm more angry at the league for the stupid rule. Sounds like alot of teams had no idea. The league should do a better job about communicating player status.
[Updated on: Tue, 30 September 2014 18:17]
Illegitimi non carborundum.
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CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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| nullterm wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 18:11 |
| spoonful wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:06 |
| Oilertime wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:56 |
| Iamheretoday wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:51 |
Some reason the Oilers site listing the contract as being ineligible by the NHL? I assume more to follow.
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Going through Twitter, it looks like he's ineligable. Going to have to hope to get in the draft next year.
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A few years ago I would have been upset about something like this but now I just laugh.
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Thank you for salvaging some humour from this. I was so angry when I opened twitter and read news... then your post. "Here come the Oilers!"
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Oilers gonna Oilers.
Normally I'd give an organization a pass for something like this. It seems like they trip up by a semi obscure rule, which is understandable... unless you've running a laughing stock team for ~15 years, then there's no goodwill left and I just think it's a case of stupid is, stupid does.
Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.
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RankinSpankin
Messages: 2
Registered: June 2013
Location: Fort McMurray
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| RankinSpankin wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:11 |
Gotta give MacT credit for finding a potential asset out of nowhere
Good signing based on merit.
Like it
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Contract inelgible.
Here I thought hell was gonna freeze over but all is right in the world again
Good thing we got rid of our lawyer assistant general manager.
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nullterm
Messages: 1033
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
1 Cup
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| CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:16 |
| nullterm wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 18:11 |
| spoonful wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:06 |
| Oilertime wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:56 |
| Iamheretoday wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:51 |
Some reason the Oilers site listing the contract as being ineligible by the NHL? I assume more to follow.
|
Going through Twitter, it looks like he's ineligable. Going to have to hope to get in the draft next year.
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A few years ago I would have been upset about something like this but now I just laugh.
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Thank you for salvaging some humour from this. I was so angry when I opened twitter and read news... then your post. "Here come the Oilers!"
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Oilers gonna Oilers.
Normally I'd give an organization a pass for something like this. It seems like they trip up by a semi obscure rule, which is understandable... unless you've running a laughing stock team for ~15 years, then there's no goodwill left and I just think it's a case of stupid is, stupid does.
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I don't blame the Oilers (on this one). Too obscure of a rule. Other teams were after Tkachev too.
But it's still a very Oilers thing to have happened. LOL
Illegitimi non carborundum.
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spoonful
Messages: 13
Registered: April 2008
Location: Edmonton
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| nullterm wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 18:19 |
I don't blame the Oilers (on this one). Too obscure of a rule. Other teams were after Tkachev too.
But it's still a very Oilers thing to have happened. LOL
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The exact situation happened with a Capitals player last year. I had never heard about it.
Then again, I'm not paid to know about it.
The Oilers screwed up, plain and simple.
The Edmonton Oilers - "Craig's on it"
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Hibernia
Messages: 102
Registered: October 1998
Location: Sin John's
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I guess Tkachev needs a new agent too, eh? It takes two sides to hammer out a deal.
What happened to all of my messages? lol (I guess it's been awhile) BlueSky: StefBarnes
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eedok
Messages: 21
Registered: March 2010
Location: Edmonton
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Happened with the Caps last year, had to use a 3rd rounder to reclaim Nathan Walker, hopefully Tkachev will be on the board when the third rounder we got for Hemsky comes up
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Suomalainen
Messages: 900
Registered: May 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
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Yep, that's about right.
97.
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mightyreasoner
Messages: 520
Registered: October 2005
Location: Edmonton
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| eedok wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 18:35 |
Happened with the Caps last year, had to use a 3rd rounder to reclaim Nathan Walker, hopefully Tkachev will be on the board when the third rounder we got for Hemsky comes up
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Walker ended up playing for the Capitals AHL team in Hershey.
So could the OKC Barons sign him? Or does the under-20 rule still apply? And if so, how did Walker sign with Hershey?
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eedok
Messages: 21
Registered: March 2010
Location: Edmonton
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| mightyreasoner wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 18:51 |
| eedok wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 18:35 |
Happened with the Caps last year, had to use a 3rd rounder to reclaim Nathan Walker, hopefully Tkachev will be on the board when the third rounder we got for Hemsky comes up
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Walker ended up playing for the Capitals AHL team in Hershey.
So could the OKC Barons sign him? Or does the under-20 rule still apply? And if so, how did Walker sign with Hershey?
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Walker didn't play in the CHL
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Skoobz
Messages: 334
Registered: January 2006
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It's ok. Not like he was going to make a difference anytime soon.
Edit: but it IS a stupid rule.
"[It was] really cool to throw on the Oilers gear, the gear that I want to play the rest of my life wearing. It was pretty cool to put it on. With all the history, it was a lot of fun." - Connor McDavid, July 1, 2015
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Adam
Messages: 7175
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
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| Hibernia wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 18:32 |
I guess Tkachev needs a new agent too, eh? It takes two sides to hammer out a deal.
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You'd think the NHL would subtly say something to club teams who are discussing publicly signing someone who's not eligible to get signed. Save everyone a little embarrassment.
"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireBobbyNicks
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BleedOil
Messages: 1
Registered: May 2002
Location: Regina
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Partly on the Oilers, partly on the agent, but lots on the NHL.
If he couldn't sign with the Oilers, and has to go into the 2015 draft, how in the hell could he have even come to camp to try out? The NHL should have stopped him from coming to camp as a free agent on a tryout, if he has to go back to junior/2015 draft.
What if he had been seriously injured during camp/exhibition games?
"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane"
--- Nikola Tesla
People who have responsibility without rights are slaves. People who have rights without responsibility are leeches.
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nullterm
Messages: 1033
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
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Now the question becomes, if he's available, what's the highest round pick you'd be willing to use on him? (Without having another CHL season of scouting and development.)
I'd use a 2nd or 3rd. Chances of getting a NHLer those rounds is iffy to begin with, use it on a kid who looks like he can keep up.
Early 1st, likely not. Depending on whose left.
Late 1st, who's kidding who, that would mean the Oil made the playoffs.
Illegitimi non carborundum.
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Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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| nullterm wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:11 |
| spoonful wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:06 |
| Oilertime wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:56 |
| Iamheretoday wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 17:51 |
Some reason the Oilers site listing the contract as being ineligible by the NHL? I assume more to follow.
|
Going through Twitter, it looks like he's ineligable. Going to have to hope to get in the draft next year.
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A few years ago I would have been upset about something like this but now I just laugh.
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Thank you for salvaging some humour from this. I was so angry when I opened twitter and read news... then your post. "Here come the Oilers!"
For the record, I'm more angry at the league for the stupid rule. Sounds like alot of teams had no idea. The league should do a better job about communicating player status.
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The NHL makes this sheet up as they go, Probably some douch bag team called the league. If he was "ineligible", then the NHL shouldn't have allowed him at camp, neve rmind let him play in all those NHL exhibition games. What if he got seriously hurt? Agent could've sued the NHL for a few million. NHL is amateur hour.
McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,
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Skookum Jim
Messages: 4418
Registered: March 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
4 Cups
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| nullterm wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 19:11 |
Now the question becomes, if he's available, what's the highest round pick you'd be willing to use on him? (Without having another CHL season of scouting and development.)
I'd use a 2nd or 3rd. Chances of getting a NHLer those rounds is iffy to begin with, use it on a kid who looks like he can keep up.
Early 1st, likely not. Depending on whose left.
Late 1st, who's kidding who, that would mean the Oil made the playoffs.
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Or that thye traded down for "the guy they really wanted all along" LOL!
McDAVID! Oh YEAH Baby!!
Tic-Tac-Tao!
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World
P. Chiarelli math.. T. Hall = A. Larsson, Yak= bag o'pucks (OK he got one right...) K. Russell = $4.1 M+NMC, G. Reinhart= M. Barzal + A. Beauvillier, J. Eberle = R. Spooner,
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smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007
1 Cup
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Brutal. The NHL knew he was there. Even national media was reporting his presence, you would think they could have said something.
I would normally fault the Oilers for stuff like this but I think this one is on the NHL. What a gong show this is.
Clean house or bust
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Nerdkore
Messages: 4
Registered: January 2009
Location: Edmonton
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While I agree the NHL may be partially to blame for this for not communicating this rule with the team earlier... At the same time it really isn't the leagues responsibility to make sure the teams know all the rules once they have been communicated. I'm sure that a rule book has been handed out to every team and it is up to the teams to make sure they have gone over it and know about all these obscure rules so that situations such as these don't happen.
It's definitely a crappy situation, Oilers are at fault for not knowing the rule. A little embarrassing since this kid was so high profile. I'm sure there is some loophole that allowed him to be playing in NHL pre season games as well since it's not quite a "real" NHL game.
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Looch
Messages: 14
Registered: December 2010
Location: Rexall Place
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You'd better believe the Oil are going to try to counter this. A waste of an exhibition roster spot seemingly just to showcase a player for other NHL teams in the upcoming draft? They will fight until the bitter end to reverse the decision but it's all there in black and white. My guess is that no compensation nor any exception will be made in this situation. What a complete embarrassment for the team and the league. Every team passed on the guy in the draft, so you'd think he's fair game now to whoever gives him a chance.
I truly feel for Tkachev. He proved to the entire hockey world that you cannot measure the level of compete in a player just based on size. The kid can sure play and he has forever gained a fan here wherever he ends up playing.
A sad day in Oil Country indeed.
Edit: After listening to MacT's interview, it's now apparent that the Oilers have accepted that he's going back in the draft. Heartbreaking.
[Updated on: Wed, 01 October 2014 05:25]
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CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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| smyth260 wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 21:08 |
Brutal. The NHL knew he was there. Even national media was reporting his presence, you would think they could have said something.
I would normally fault the Oilers for stuff like this but I think this one is on the NHL. What a gong show this is.
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It's not the NHL's job to run the Edmonton Oilers, even if they'd probably do a better job of it.
Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.
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Hibernia
Messages: 102
Registered: October 1998
Location: Sin John's
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| CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 11:34 |
| smyth260 wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 21:08 |
Brutal. The NHL knew he was there. Even national media was reporting his presence, you would think they could have said something.
I would normally fault the Oilers for stuff like this but I think this one is on the NHL. What a gong show this is.
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It's not the NHL's job to run the Edmonton Oilers, even if they'd probably do a better job of it.
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I dunno about that... have you seen the Coyotes?
But you're right that it's not the NHL's fault. I can't imagine they have someone combing through every player at every training camp and then advising the team on their eligibility to compete. Only once the legal document was signed would the NHL's lawyers kick-in and do their work.
In the end, I'm not surprised by this rule. Any other player that plays partially in Europe can't just jump in the NHL when they choose. I'm sure this sort of rule is there to keep the Euro leagues happy, so that young players aren't jumping ship halfway through the season for a pie-in-the-sky dream.
What happened to all of my messages? lol (I guess it's been awhile) BlueSky: StefBarnes
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CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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| Hibernia wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 08:24 |
| CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 11:34 |
It's not the NHL's job to run the Edmonton Oilers, even if they'd probably do a better job of it.
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I dunno about that... have you seen the Coyotes?
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2014 - Coyotes 89 Oilers 67
2013 - Coyotes 51 Oilers 45
2012 - Coyotes 97 Oilers 74
2011 - Coyotes 99 Oilers 62
2010 - Coyotes 107 Oilers 62
2009 - Oilers 85 Coyotes 79 *NHL starts running Coyotes
2008 - Oilers 88 Coyotes 83
2007 - Oilers 71 Coyotes 67
I'd be ok if a dart throwing monkey was running the Oilers right now.
Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.
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 Kr55
Messages: 10770
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton
6 Cups
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| CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 08:33 |
| Hibernia wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 08:24 |
| CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 11:34 |
It's not the NHL's job to run the Edmonton Oilers, even if they'd probably do a better job of it.
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I dunno about that... have you seen the Coyotes?
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2014 - Coyotes 89 Oilers 67
2013 - Coyotes 51 Oilers 45
2012 - Coyotes 97 Oilers 74
2011 - Coyotes 99 Oilers 62
2010 - Coyotes 107 Oilers 62
2009 - Oilers 85 Coyotes 79 *NHL starts running Coyotes
2008 - Oilers 88 Coyotes 83
2007 - Oilers 71 Coyotes 67
I'd be ok if a dart throwing monkey was running the Oilers right now.
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hehe,
I guess you can blame this more on the kids agent. But, in the end, he made his asset more valuable so he does get something out of this. We get nothing (except "just oilers being oilers" comments).
[Updated on: Wed, 01 October 2014 08:49]
"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013
"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015
5 x $5,000,000
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smyth260
Messages: 1081
Registered: November 2007
1 Cup
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| CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 07:04 |
| smyth260 wrote on Tue, 30 September 2014 21:08 |
Brutal. The NHL knew he was there. Even national media was reporting his presence, you would think they could have said something.
I would normally fault the Oilers for stuff like this but I think this one is on the NHL. What a gong show this is.
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It's not the NHL's job to run the Edmonton Oilers, even if they'd probably do a better job of it.
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Yeah, I revisited it in my head and I agree, silly I expected the NHL to know about every teams' camp invites and if they are eligible. Obviously they found out he was ineligible once the deal was announced and the contract had to be processed.
This is more on the the Oilers not doing their due diligence before inviting a player and finding out his eligibility. More specifically this is probably where the lawyer assistant GM should have come in.
Clean house or bust
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Oiler76
Messages: 16
Registered: August 2006
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Hallsy wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 03:15 |
You'd better believe the Oil are going to try to counter this. A waste of an exhibition roster spot seemingly just to showcase a player for other NHL teams in the upcoming draft? They will fight until the bitter end to reverse the decision but it's all there in black and white. My guess is that no compensation nor any exception will be made in this situation. What a complete embarrassment for the team and the league. Every team passed on the guy in the draft, so you'd think he's fair game now to whoever gives him a chance.
I truly feel for Tkachev. He proved to the entire hockey world that you cannot measure the level of compete in a player just based on size. The kid can sure play and he has forever gained a fan here wherever he ends up playing.
A sad day in Oil Country indeed.
Edit: After listening to MacT's interview, it's now apparent that the Oilers have accepted that he's going back in the draft. Heartbreaking.
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I find it actually more disappointing that Mact has accepted the NHL's decision. If New Jersey can get away with circumventing the cap and getting back their penalized 1st Round draft with the entire Kovalchuk debacle, then the Oilers may have a case for Tkachev. Possibly filing a grievance with the NHLPA?
" The Vancouver Canucks: Celebrating Second Round Losses for 50 years!"
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Hibernia
Messages: 102
Registered: October 1998
Location: Sin John's
No Cups
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...and that awesome team has won 2 more playoff rounds than the Oilers in that time frame. I would hope we're aiming a little higher than that.
What happened to all of my messages? lol (I guess it's been awhile) BlueSky: StefBarnes
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CrusaderPi
Messages: 7803
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100
6 Cups
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| Hibernia wrote on Wed, 01 October 2014 10:04 |
...and that awesome team has won 2 more playoff rounds than the Oilers in that time frame. I would hope we're aiming a little higher than that.
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I never said the Coyotes were awesome just that they were run better by the NHL than the Oilers were.
Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.
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