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 Goaltending [message #722629]
Mon, 19 November 2018 09:27 Go to next message
GabbyDugan  is currently offline GabbyDugan
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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...some random thoughts about the current Oiler situation, which in my view, needs a major overhaul....NOW...

....Goaltending issues plague this organization....have for years...and I don't think any other NHL team is going to trade a quality goalie to Edmonton, given the current NHL climate where goalies tend to be getting hurt at a significant rate....

I've been okay with the performance of Koskanen...after a rather tepid pre-season and little action during the early part of the regular season, he seems to be working hard to improve his game and getting to know the nuances of the NHL....don't know if he has what it takes to be an NHL first stringer, but he certainly has exceeded my expectations so far...


....in their first exposure to division competition this season, the Oilers were defeated on the road by a young goalie with little NHL experience, then defeated at home the next night by a veteran, Stanley Cup winning goalie who has been inconsistent himself over the past few seasons....

...meanwhile, Laurent Broissoit, the Oilers backup for part of last season (and was pretty weak as an Oiler , adequate as a Condor) is thriving as the backup for the Winnipeg Jets...

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=118258

...of course, we all know about Devan Dubnyk...spent years developing in the Oiler system, played okay for the Oilers for a short while, turned stale, bounced around for a season or so before landing in Minnesota where he became an NHL stalwart...

Dustin Schwartz has been working with both Koskinen and Talbot, but the results for Talbot are poor this season...I question if Schwartz is getting the goalies properly prepared for game situations

https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/blog-koskinen-to-start-in-ca lgary/c-302009290?tid=281885062

...."The Oilers coach has also been happy with Talbot's body of work in practice late. The netminder is 5-7-1, owning a 3.09 goals-against average and .895 save percentage.

"He's spent a lot of time with Dustin Schwartz, the goaltender coach and they talk about his play, scenarios, reads and then when he does get the time on the ice, he works as hard and as efficiently as anybody we have on our team," McLellan said.

"That is very encouraging.".....

....one last point....equipment changes...a few NHL goalies have mentioned the new chest protectors leave the goalies bruised from pucks directed their way...haven't heard any comments or excuses from the Oilers, but every NHL goalie has had to adjust...




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 Re: Goaltending [message #722634 is a reply to message #722629 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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What concerns me about the goalies here like the Dubnyk's or the Brossoit's is it seems like the Oilers put all this time, money and energy into developing them. They get to a point were they look like they can be good but they don't quite get there. Then the organization finally gives up and moves on. Dubnyk was the worse because they put a TON of years into him and he got to an OK point but didn't go over the top like he did in Minnie. Then these guys move on and you hear how they have this come to Jesus moment where they change how they train and how they do things and it happens for them. Right after Dubnyk was traded and in that offseason, he said he trained differently and started doing things differently and he popped. I heard Brossoit talk about the changes he made this offseason and so far so good.

So my concern is why aren't these guys making these changes when they are Oilers? When year after year it's the same result, why do they have to move on before they figure out they have to do something different? They have had several goalie coaches, I don't know what they do but I can't imagine all the goalie coaches they have have told these guys "just keep doing the same old same old" when they have the same results. So what is missing? Is the message not getting through to these guys? Are they ignoring them. Are they not hard enough on them. I don't get it.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722647 is a reply to message #722634 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeff340  is currently offline jeff340
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How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


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 Re: Goaltending [message #722648 is a reply to message #722647 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


You have a point. A goalie would look a little better with an amazing defense in front of him but at the same time, a goalie has to make a save. No defense no matter how good they are can suppress every single shot or scoring chance. Case in point, the 2 Vegas goals 1:30 apart. Eakins and Marchessault scored on the exact same shot. The defense didn't give up the middle, kept them to the outside. Both guys ripped a shot far side that beat Talbot clean. They were OK, not great scoring chances. I personally don't think Talbot took the proper angle on the shots and he needs to make a save. Do your job, make a save.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722650 is a reply to message #722648 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigEfromGP  is currently offline bigEfromGP
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:19

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


You have a point. A goalie would look a little better with an amazing defense in front of him but at the same time, a goalie has to make a save. No defense no matter how good they are can suppress every single shot or scoring chance. Case in point, the 2 Vegas goals 1:30 apart. Eakins and Marchessault scored on the exact same shot. The defense didn't give up the middle, kept them to the outside. Both guys ripped a shot far side that beat Talbot clean. They were OK, not great scoring chances. I personally don't think Talbot took the proper angle on the shots and he needs to make a save. Do your job, make a save.


It certainly plays a factor , but how many first shots of the game did Talbot let in last year? No amount of Dmen can help those issues.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722651 is a reply to message #722647 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: Goaltending [message #722652 is a reply to message #722651 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?

Fall faster!



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722653 is a reply to message #722652 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:49

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?

Fall faster!

Fall higher!



You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.


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 Re: Goaltending [message #722655 is a reply to message #722651 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?


Talbot gave up 6 goals.

1st goal. Puck is dumped in. Benning and the Vegas guy meet at the same time, Benning chips it up the boards, it's not hard enough to get out I assume because the Vegas guy hit it as well. Theodore flings it towards the goal, Karlsson is cruising through the slot happens to get a long tip. I don't necessarily blame Talbot. It was a tip but at the same time, it was a high tip and sometimes you need your goalie to make a big save like Fleury did several times. So call it 50-50.

2nd goal. Give away in the far end on the PP. Eakins cruises in. Fires a shot. Beats Talbot clean to blocker side. He can see the shot. The second goal I thought stunk in that you need your starter to make a save. It was a decent shot but it's not Ovie here, it's Eakins. Make a stop. Teams need timely big saves, there was a chance he didn't do it.

3rd goal. Pacioretty flips the puck in front, hits Benning, goes in. Unlucky, not his fault.

4th goal. Marchessault gets the puck at the circles. Talbot knows where the shooter is. Marchesaault beats him blocker side, same spot as Eakins. This was the back breaker. They give up a shortie which you would like to see your starter make a save on, then Vegas gets a fluky one. He can't let this one in. Again, it was a decent shot but make a SAVE!! Your team is reeling a bit, they need it. MAKE A SAVE.

After that 4th goal went in, the Oilers were done. You could see it on their face, their spirit was broken. They lost all belief in their goalie to make a stop. They played scared from then on to make a mistake. They were done. That 4th goal CAN'T GO IN.

5th goal. Puck goes to the point, fired at the net looking for a tip, Marchessault makes a nice tip.

6th goal. Smith is allowed to come in and fire it a shot. Bad coverage.

The second and 4th goal were killers to this team. I agree the management has done a bad job, that can include Nicholson. I agree the coaching staff, mostly McLellan, hasn't been great. But they need their goalie to make a save. Talbot is not doing that.

[Updated on: Mon, 19 November 2018 14:11]


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 Re: Goaltending [message #722656 is a reply to message #722655 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:09

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?


Talbot gave up 6 goals.

1st goal. Puck is dumped in. Benning and the Vegas guy meet at the same time, Benning chips it up the boards, it's not hard enough to get out I assume because the Vegas guy hit it as well. Theodore flings it towards the goal, Karlsson is cruising through the slot happens to get a long tip. I don't necessarily blame Talbot. It was a tip but at the same time, it was a high tip and sometimes you need your goalie to make a big save like Fleury did several times. So call it 50-50.

2nd goal. Give away in the far end on the PP. Eakins cruises in. Fires a shot. Beats Talbot clean to blocker side. He can see the shot. The second goal I thought stunk in that you need your starter to make a save. It was a decent shot but it's not Ovie here, it's Eakins. Make a stop. Teams need timely big saves, there was a chance he didn't do it.

3rd goal. Pacioretty flips the puck in front, hits Benning, goes in. Unlucky, not his fault.

4th goal. Marchessault gets the puck at the circles. Talbot knows where the shooter is. Marchesaault beats him blocker side, same spot as Eakins. This was the back breaker. They give up a shortie which you would like to see your starter make a save on, then Vegas gets a fluky one. He can't let this one in. Again, it was a decent shot but make a SAVE!! Your team is reeling a bit, they need it. MAKE A SAVE.

After that 4th goal went in, the Oilers were done. You could see it on their face, their spirit was broken. They lost all belief in their goalie to make a stop. They played scared from then on to make a mistake. They were done. That 4th goal CAN'T GO IN.

5th goal. Puck goes to the point, fired at the net looking for a tip, Marchessault makes a nice tip.

6th goal. Smith is allowed to come in and fire it a shot. Bad coverage.

The second and 4th goal were killers to this team. I agree the management has done a bad job, that can include Nicholson. I agree the coaching staff, mostly McLellan, hasn't been great. But they need their goalie to make a save. Talbot is not doing that.

I too feel that we would have lost 4-3 if Talbot played better.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722658 is a reply to message #722656 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 14:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:19

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:09

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?


Talbot gave up 6 goals.

1st goal. Puck is dumped in. Benning and the Vegas guy meet at the same time, Benning chips it up the boards, it's not hard enough to get out I assume because the Vegas guy hit it as well. Theodore flings it towards the goal, Karlsson is cruising through the slot happens to get a long tip. I don't necessarily blame Talbot. It was a tip but at the same time, it was a high tip and sometimes you need your goalie to make a big save like Fleury did several times. So call it 50-50.

2nd goal. Give away in the far end on the PP. Eakins cruises in. Fires a shot. Beats Talbot clean to blocker side. He can see the shot. The second goal I thought stunk in that you need your starter to make a save. It was a decent shot but it's not Ovie here, it's Eakins. Make a stop. Teams need timely big saves, there was a chance he didn't do it.

3rd goal. Pacioretty flips the puck in front, hits Benning, goes in. Unlucky, not his fault.

4th goal. Marchessault gets the puck at the circles. Talbot knows where the shooter is. Marchesaault beats him blocker side, same spot as Eakins. This was the back breaker. They give up a shortie which you would like to see your starter make a save on, then Vegas gets a fluky one. He can't let this one in. Again, it was a decent shot but make a SAVE!! Your team is reeling a bit, they need it. MAKE A SAVE.

After that 4th goal went in, the Oilers were done. You could see it on their face, their spirit was broken. They lost all belief in their goalie to make a stop. They played scared from then on to make a mistake. They were done. That 4th goal CAN'T GO IN.

5th goal. Puck goes to the point, fired at the net looking for a tip, Marchessault makes a nice tip.

6th goal. Smith is allowed to come in and fire it a shot. Bad coverage.

The second and 4th goal were killers to this team. I agree the management has done a bad job, that can include Nicholson. I agree the coaching staff, mostly McLellan, hasn't been great. But they need their goalie to make a save. Talbot is not doing that.

I too feel that we would have lost 4-3 if Talbot played better.

That is not what I said.

If Talbot is playing well. Going into the 3rd period at worse, it should have 2-2. If It's tied going into the 3rd, all bets are off as I thought Fleury was good but lucky a few times. But it was 4-2 with 2 of them being back breaking, spirit crushing goals. So I am not convinced the 5th and 6th goals happen if the team is playing a confident, attacking style. They weren't. They were playing not to make a mistake because they didn't believe in Talbot making a save which is death for a team.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722657 is a reply to message #722655 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:09

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?


Talbot gave up 6 goals.

1st goal. Puck is dumped in. Benning and the Vegas guy meet at the same time, Benning chips it up the boards, it's not hard enough to get out I assume because the Vegas guy hit it as well. Theodore flings it towards the goal, Karlsson is cruising through the slot happens to get a long tip. I don't necessarily blame Talbot. It was a tip but at the same time, it was a high tip and sometimes you need your goalie to make a big save like Fleury did several times. So call it 50-50.

2nd goal. Give away in the far end on the PP. Eakins cruises in. Fires a shot. Beats Talbot clean to blocker side. He can see the shot. The second goal I thought stunk in that you need your starter to make a save. It was a decent shot but it's not Ovie here, it's Eakins. Make a stop. Teams need timely big saves, there was a chance he didn't do it.

3rd goal. Pacioretty flips the puck in front, hits Benning, goes in. Unlucky, not his fault.

4th goal. Marchessault gets the puck at the circles. Talbot knows where the shooter is. Marchesaault beats him blocker side, same spot as Eakins. This was the back breaker. They give up a shortie which you would like to see your starter make a save on, then Vegas gets a fluky one. He can't let this one in. Again, it was a decent shot but make a SAVE!! Your team is reeling a bit, they need it. MAKE A SAVE.

After that 4th goal went in, the Oilers were done. You could see it on their face, their spirit was broken. They lost all belief in their goalie to make a stop. They played scared from then on to make a mistake. They were done. That 4th goal CAN'T GO IN.

5th goal. Puck goes to the point, fired at the net looking for a tip, Marchessault makes a nice tip.

6th goal. Smith is allowed to come in and fire it a shot. Bad coverage.

The second and 4th goal were killers to this team. I agree the management has done a bad job, that can include Nicholson. I agree the coaching staff, mostly McLellan, hasn't been great. But they need their goalie to make a save. Talbot is not doing that.


The goalie is the last guy the puck goes by and is more visible for sure, but he's not the only guy down in the dumps right now. The body language of this entire team is trash again, like last year. Skaters are making just as bad of mistakes as Talbot, but they get to be standing off to the side as the puck is going into our net. Whole team is mentally fragile again just like last season, and Koskinen would likely fall into that same trap as he got more starts.

Even if you wanted to swap Talbot with another goalie, I think you just end up with another guy that will have his confidence slowly eroded by this team, unless you can somehow find the next Patrick Roy and get him for pennies.

So many hard to solve problems with this team, and to me the only real solution is still to finally wipe out the upper management and get some smart people that actually know how to solve problems in the NHL.



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: Goaltending [message #722659 is a reply to message #722657 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:09

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?


Talbot gave up 6 goals.

1st goal. Puck is dumped in. Benning and the Vegas guy meet at the same time, Benning chips it up the boards, it's not hard enough to get out I assume because the Vegas guy hit it as well. Theodore flings it towards the goal, Karlsson is cruising through the slot happens to get a long tip. I don't necessarily blame Talbot. It was a tip but at the same time, it was a high tip and sometimes you need your goalie to make a big save like Fleury did several times. So call it 50-50.

2nd goal. Give away in the far end on the PP. Eakins cruises in. Fires a shot. Beats Talbot clean to blocker side. He can see the shot. The second goal I thought stunk in that you need your starter to make a save. It was a decent shot but it's not Ovie here, it's Eakins. Make a stop. Teams need timely big saves, there was a chance he didn't do it.

3rd goal. Pacioretty flips the puck in front, hits Benning, goes in. Unlucky, not his fault.

4th goal. Marchessault gets the puck at the circles. Talbot knows where the shooter is. Marchesaault beats him blocker side, same spot as Eakins. This was the back breaker. They give up a shortie which you would like to see your starter make a save on, then Vegas gets a fluky one. He can't let this one in. Again, it was a decent shot but make a SAVE!! Your team is reeling a bit, they need it. MAKE A SAVE.

After that 4th goal went in, the Oilers were done. You could see it on their face, their spirit was broken. They lost all belief in their goalie to make a stop. They played scared from then on to make a mistake. They were done. That 4th goal CAN'T GO IN.

5th goal. Puck goes to the point, fired at the net looking for a tip, Marchessault makes a nice tip.

6th goal. Smith is allowed to come in and fire it a shot. Bad coverage.

The second and 4th goal were killers to this team. I agree the management has done a bad job, that can include Nicholson. I agree the coaching staff, mostly McLellan, hasn't been great. But they need their goalie to make a save. Talbot is not doing that.


The goalie is the last guy the puck goes by and is more visible for sure, but he's not the only guy down in the dumps right now. The body language of this entire team is trash again, like last year. Skaters are making just as bad of mistakes as Talbot, but they get to be standing off to the side as the puck is going into our net. Whole team is mentally fragile again just like last season, and Koskinen would likely fall into that same trap as he got more starts.

Even if you wanted to swap Talbot with another goalie, I think you just end up with another guy that will have his confidence slowly eroded by this team, unless you can somehow find the next Patrick Roy and get him for pennies.

So many hard to solve problems with this team, and to me the only real solution is still to finally wipe out the upper management and get some smart people that actually know how to solve problems in the NHL.

The team is just fine for the most part when Koskinen is in the net. The Flames game they dominated for the first 2 periods, Ritich stood on his head stopping 3 short handed breakaway. He basically flipped off the bench after he stopped the 3rd one. If one of those goes in, game over. The Oilers took too many penalties and quite frankly, I thought the reffing was garbage. The Oilers got wrapped up WAY, WAY too much in worry about Tkachuk and I think McLellen made a coaching mistake with his lines going into the 3rd. He needed to put Kassian and Lucic on the top line to calm Tkachuk down. Once Kassian jumped him and he turtled like a coward, the game went to hockey again. Once that happened, which it did in the 3rd, McLellan should have went back to his normal lines.

But in general, the Oilers play OK and WAY more confident with Koskinen in the net vs Talbot. When Talbot is in, they expect something bad to happen.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722661 is a reply to message #722659 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:39

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:09

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?


Talbot gave up 6 goals.

1st goal. Puck is dumped in. Benning and the Vegas guy meet at the same time, Benning chips it up the boards, it's not hard enough to get out I assume because the Vegas guy hit it as well. Theodore flings it towards the goal, Karlsson is cruising through the slot happens to get a long tip. I don't necessarily blame Talbot. It was a tip but at the same time, it was a high tip and sometimes you need your goalie to make a big save like Fleury did several times. So call it 50-50.

2nd goal. Give away in the far end on the PP. Eakins cruises in. Fires a shot. Beats Talbot clean to blocker side. He can see the shot. The second goal I thought stunk in that you need your starter to make a save. It was a decent shot but it's not Ovie here, it's Eakins. Make a stop. Teams need timely big saves, there was a chance he didn't do it.

3rd goal. Pacioretty flips the puck in front, hits Benning, goes in. Unlucky, not his fault.

4th goal. Marchessault gets the puck at the circles. Talbot knows where the shooter is. Marchesaault beats him blocker side, same spot as Eakins. This was the back breaker. They give up a shortie which you would like to see your starter make a save on, then Vegas gets a fluky one. He can't let this one in. Again, it was a decent shot but make a SAVE!! Your team is reeling a bit, they need it. MAKE A SAVE.

After that 4th goal went in, the Oilers were done. You could see it on their face, their spirit was broken. They lost all belief in their goalie to make a stop. They played scared from then on to make a mistake. They were done. That 4th goal CAN'T GO IN.

5th goal. Puck goes to the point, fired at the net looking for a tip, Marchessault makes a nice tip.

6th goal. Smith is allowed to come in and fire it a shot. Bad coverage.

The second and 4th goal were killers to this team. I agree the management has done a bad job, that can include Nicholson. I agree the coaching staff, mostly McLellan, hasn't been great. But they need their goalie to make a save. Talbot is not doing that.


The goalie is the last guy the puck goes by and is more visible for sure, but he's not the only guy down in the dumps right now. The body language of this entire team is trash again, like last year. Skaters are making just as bad of mistakes as Talbot, but they get to be standing off to the side as the puck is going into our net. Whole team is mentally fragile again just like last season, and Koskinen would likely fall into that same trap as he got more starts.

Even if you wanted to swap Talbot with another goalie, I think you just end up with another guy that will have his confidence slowly eroded by this team, unless you can somehow find the next Patrick Roy and get him for pennies.

So many hard to solve problems with this team, and to me the only real solution is still to finally wipe out the upper management and get some smart people that actually know how to solve problems in the NHL.

The team is just fine for the most part when Koskinen is in the net. The Flames game they dominated for the first 2 periods, Ritich stood on his head stopping 3 short handed breakaway. He basically flipped off the bench after he stopped the 3rd one. If one of those goes in, game over. The Oilers took too many penalties and quite frankly, I thought the reffing was garbage. The Oilers got wrapped up WAY, WAY too much in worry about Tkachuk and I think McLellen made a coaching mistake with his lines going into the 3rd. He needed to put Kassian and Lucic on the top line to calm Tkachuk down. Once Kassian jumped him and he turtled like a coward, the game went to hockey again. Once that happened, which it did in the 3rd, McLellan should have went back to his normal lines.

But in general, the Oilers play OK and WAY more confident with Koskinen in the net vs Talbot. When Talbot is in, they expect something bad to happen.


They do play better for Koskinen for sure, but that can go away very quickly if Koskinen was to become the starter. Team is very fragile and very prone to playing in that scared mode where everyone is expecting their world to crumble around them.

For sure right now, Koskinen should be treated like he's the starter. Talbot needs a break, and the players need a break from him. But, I'm just not optimistic that Koskinen is going to be good enough to repair the psyche of this team, and cover up the lineup issues and coaching weaknesses over a long period of time. Worth a shot though.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722662 is a reply to message #722661 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:44

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:39

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:21

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 14:09

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 12:47

jeff340 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 11:49

How much of the blame should be on the goalies and how much should be on not having 6 NHL caliber defense-men on the ice every night.


We in for a repeat of 13/14? Nicholson has already been setting the stage for scapegoating Talbot. MacT put all the blame for his and Eakins failures at the feet of Dubnyk back in 13/14. Bought him another year, and the team cratered even further, ending with a 20 losses in 21 game run. But, we did get McDavid, so maybe it's OK to do it all over?


Talbot gave up 6 goals.

1st goal. Puck is dumped in. Benning and the Vegas guy meet at the same time, Benning chips it up the boards, it's not hard enough to get out I assume because the Vegas guy hit it as well. Theodore flings it towards the goal, Karlsson is cruising through the slot happens to get a long tip. I don't necessarily blame Talbot. It was a tip but at the same time, it was a high tip and sometimes you need your goalie to make a big save like Fleury did several times. So call it 50-50.

2nd goal. Give away in the far end on the PP. Eakins cruises in. Fires a shot. Beats Talbot clean to blocker side. He can see the shot. The second goal I thought stunk in that you need your starter to make a save. It was a decent shot but it's not Ovie here, it's Eakins. Make a stop. Teams need timely big saves, there was a chance he didn't do it.

3rd goal. Pacioretty flips the puck in front, hits Benning, goes in. Unlucky, not his fault.

4th goal. Marchessault gets the puck at the circles. Talbot knows where the shooter is. Marchesaault beats him blocker side, same spot as Eakins. This was the back breaker. They give up a shortie which you would like to see your starter make a save on, then Vegas gets a fluky one. He can't let this one in. Again, it was a decent shot but make a SAVE!! Your team is reeling a bit, they need it. MAKE A SAVE.

After that 4th goal went in, the Oilers were done. You could see it on their face, their spirit was broken. They lost all belief in their goalie to make a stop. They played scared from then on to make a mistake. They were done. That 4th goal CAN'T GO IN.

5th goal. Puck goes to the point, fired at the net looking for a tip, Marchessault makes a nice tip.

6th goal. Smith is allowed to come in and fire it a shot. Bad coverage.

The second and 4th goal were killers to this team. I agree the management has done a bad job, that can include Nicholson. I agree the coaching staff, mostly McLellan, hasn't been great. But they need their goalie to make a save. Talbot is not doing that.


The goalie is the last guy the puck goes by and is more visible for sure, but he's not the only guy down in the dumps right now. The body language of this entire team is trash again, like last year. Skaters are making just as bad of mistakes as Talbot, but they get to be standing off to the side as the puck is going into our net. Whole team is mentally fragile again just like last season, and Koskinen would likely fall into that same trap as he got more starts.

Even if you wanted to swap Talbot with another goalie, I think you just end up with another guy that will have his confidence slowly eroded by this team, unless you can somehow find the next Patrick Roy and get him for pennies.

So many hard to solve problems with this team, and to me the only real solution is still to finally wipe out the upper management and get some smart people that actually know how to solve problems in the NHL.

The team is just fine for the most part when Koskinen is in the net. The Flames game they dominated for the first 2 periods, Ritich stood on his head stopping 3 short handed breakaway. He basically flipped off the bench after he stopped the 3rd one. If one of those goes in, game over. The Oilers took too many penalties and quite frankly, I thought the reffing was garbage. The Oilers got wrapped up WAY, WAY too much in worry about Tkachuk and I think McLellen made a coaching mistake with his lines going into the 3rd. He needed to put Kassian and Lucic on the top line to calm Tkachuk down. Once Kassian jumped him and he turtled like a coward, the game went to hockey again. Once that happened, which it did in the 3rd, McLellan should have went back to his normal lines.

But in general, the Oilers play OK and WAY more confident with Koskinen in the net vs Talbot. When Talbot is in, they expect something bad to happen.


They do play better for Koskinen for sure, but that can go away very quickly if Koskinen was to become the starter. Team is very fragile and very prone to playing in that scared mode where everyone is expecting their world to crumble around them.

For sure right now, Koskinen should be treated like he's the starter. Talbot needs a break, and the players need a break from him. But, I'm just not optimistic that Koskinen is going to be good enough to repair the psyche of this team, and cover up the lineup issues and coaching weaknesses over a long period of time. Worth a shot though.

I have no idea if Koskinen can do it either but I would start Koskinen at minimum the next 3 games. If ever there was a game I thought Talbot would step up, it was last night. Talbot was lousy against the Avs at home, then Koskinen was good against the Habs at home. There was a few days of practice for Talbot. Then they give Koskinen the start in Calgary. First division game, Battle of Alberta, nationally televised game and he's not starting. If was Talbot, I would be PISSED and want to show everyone especially the coaches that the starters job was MINE and I am not giving it up. So I would expecting him to come out motivate, fired up and play really well. He was the opposite. He looked shaky from the start and like I said, I didn't think he looked good on at least 2 goals.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722665 is a reply to message #722662 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Here is a question. Does anyone think that Talbot was a bit of an equipment goalie?

At 6'4, 196 he's a fairly good sized guy. It's not like he is Ryan Miller who is 6'2, 168 lbs soaking wet and looks like a giant in the net, then you see him without equipment and highschool kids are bigger than him.

2016-2017, when Talbot was all world, I don't think there was any equipment changes and the gear was the same for a long time.

2017-2018, they shrink the shoulder pads a bit and Talbot sucks for most of the year. Eventually he rounds out his game finishing strong to end the year. But prior I think well into February, I believe he was below .900 which is pretty bad. The Oilers didn't have a back up capable of winning a game to keep them a float while Talbot sucked so without NHL goaltending, they disappeared into a hole.

2018-2019, they shrink the chest protectors and Talbot so far has been mostly lousy. After 14 starts, he's got a 3.30 GA and a .888 save percentage. Those are not NHL numbers and it sure feels like last year as so far he flat out can't make a big save right now like every team needs. He himself said in his interview last night, he can't find a way to make a big save when the team needs it. He said he started making big saves after it was 4-2. Well no disrespect Talbot but if you spot a team 4 goals before you make a big stop, it's too late. Very few teams will win if it takes you 4 or 5 goals to do it.

So I am just wondering if he was a bit of an equipment goalie because his game has went into the tank for long stretches every year they changed the gear to be smaller. Eventually he figures it out so it wouldn't shock me if after xmas he figures it out but that could probably be too late again.

Now to be clear, the Oilers have issues with their roster and coaching BUT when they get NHL goaltending which I think is around .910, they are usually in the game and can win them. When they don't, they have no chance.

[Updated on: Mon, 19 November 2018 16:13]


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 Re: Goaltending [message #722667 is a reply to message #722665 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Fair, but sometimes the team is so bad that Martin Brodeur in his prime couldn't post 9.10


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2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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 Re: Goaltending [message #722669 is a reply to message #722665 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 15:09

Here is a question. Does anyone think that Talbot was a bit of an equipment goalie?

At 6'4, 196 he's a fairly good sized guy. It's not like he is Ryan Miller who is 6'2, 168 lbs soaking wet and looks like a giant in the net, then you see him without equipment and highschool kids are bigger than him.

2016-2017, when Talbot was all world, I don't think there was any equipment changes and the gear was the same for a long time.

2017-2018, they shrink the shoulder pads a bit and Talbot sucks for most of the year. Eventually he rounds out his game finishing strong to end the year. But prior I think well into February, I believe he was below .900 which is pretty bad. The Oilers didn't have a back up capable of winning a game to keep them a float while Talbot sucked so without NHL goaltending, they disappeared into a hole.

2018-2019, they shrink the chest protectors and Talbot so far has been mostly lousy. After 14 starts, he's got a 3.30 GA and a .888 save percentage. Those are not NHL numbers and it sure feels like last year as so far he flat out can't make a big save right now like every team needs. He himself said in his interview last night, he can't find a way to make a big save when the team needs it. He said he started making big saves after it was 4-2. Well no disrespect Talbot but if you spot a team 4 goals before you make a big stop, it's too late. Very few teams will win if it takes you 4 or 5 goals to do it.

So I am just wondering if he was a bit of an equipment goalie because his game has went into the tank for long stretches every year they changed the gear to be smaller. Eventually he figures it out so it wouldn't shock me if after xmas he figures it out but that could probably be too late again.

Now to be clear, the Oilers have issues with their roster and coaching BUT when they get NHL goaltending which I think is around .910, they are usually in the game and can win them. When they don't, they have no chance.


There could be something to this, however, why is it that the opposition goalies we're facing all seem to be adjusting? Even games this season that we've scored a bunch of goals, I don't recall thinking, man their goalie is really struggling tonight. Maybe the odd goal, but off the top of my head I would say almost every goal the Oilers have scored has been on a high-quality chance.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #722716 is a reply to message #722669 ]
Tue, 20 November 2018 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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jds308 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 16:59

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 15:09

Here is a question. Does anyone think that Talbot was a bit of an equipment goalie?

At 6'4, 196 he's a fairly good sized guy. It's not like he is Ryan Miller who is 6'2, 168 lbs soaking wet and looks like a giant in the net, then you see him without equipment and highschool kids are bigger than him.

2016-2017, when Talbot was all world, I don't think there was any equipment changes and the gear was the same for a long time.

2017-2018, they shrink the shoulder pads a bit and Talbot sucks for most of the year. Eventually he rounds out his game finishing strong to end the year. But prior I think well into February, I believe he was below .900 which is pretty bad. The Oilers didn't have a back up capable of winning a game to keep them a float while Talbot sucked so without NHL goaltending, they disappeared into a hole.

2018-2019, they shrink the chest protectors and Talbot so far has been mostly lousy. After 14 starts, he's got a 3.30 GA and a .888 save percentage. Those are not NHL numbers and it sure feels like last year as so far he flat out can't make a big save right now like every team needs. He himself said in his interview last night, he can't find a way to make a big save when the team needs it. He said he started making big saves after it was 4-2. Well no disrespect Talbot but if you spot a team 4 goals before you make a big stop, it's too late. Very few teams will win if it takes you 4 or 5 goals to do it.

So I am just wondering if he was a bit of an equipment goalie because his game has went into the tank for long stretches every year they changed the gear to be smaller. Eventually he figures it out so it wouldn't shock me if after xmas he figures it out but that could probably be too late again.

Now to be clear, the Oilers have issues with their roster and coaching BUT when they get NHL goaltending which I think is around .910, they are usually in the game and can win them. When they don't, they have no chance.


There could be something to this, however, why is it that the opposition goalies we're facing all seem to be adjusting? Even games this season that we've scored a bunch of goals, I don't recall thinking, man their goalie is really struggling tonight. Maybe the odd goal, but off the top of my head I would say almost every goal the Oilers have scored has been on a high-quality chance.

I don't agree that other goalies haven't had problems. Think about some of the top guys in the last few seasons.

Holtby struggled for much of last year, lost his job for a while. Grubaurer actually started the playoffs for Washington before he took over. This season he's off to a not great start again.
Price has struggled the last couple of seasons.
Smith has struggled.

Those are the easy ones that I cherry picked but there are others.

I was just curious if there is another cause to Talbot's woes. He was pretty good as a Ranger. It took him about a month and a bit to figure out playing with the Oilers when he first got here. New City, new players, new coaches, new system, new everything so him needing an adjustment time can a little bit be expected. 2016-2017 he was outstanding. Then 2017-2018 he dropped off a cliff and so far in 2018-2019, he hasn't been much better. The coaches haven't changed, most of the defense hasn't changed, the forwards haven't changed, the system hasn't changed that much, he's accustom to the City, the rink, everything. Last year So he should be settle right in. So to go from 2016-2017 to where he as last year and this year is one hell of a drop.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723005 is a reply to message #722669 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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jds308 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 16:59



There could be something to this, however, why is it that the opposition goalies we're facing all seem to be adjusting? Even games this season that we've scored a bunch of goals, I don't recall thinking, man their goalie is really struggling tonight. Maybe the odd goal, but off the top of my head I would say almost every goal the Oilers have scored has been on a high-quality chance.


McDavid is in on almost 60% of our offence, so that might be part of why we've seen so many highlight reel goals. The Oilers other lines have all been caved in for shots metrics, so we have made it easy on opposing goalies - even the ones that have struggled.

We've also seen a high percentage of backups so far this year...haven't really taken advantage of that.

Lots of goalies struggle at certain times, and Talbot's been consistently a slow starter. Only thing that has me really concerned is his age. Some goalies drop off the map now. Bill Ranford went pretty quickly from one of the best in the game to out of the league at 33...it's far from certain that Talbot's best days aren't now behind him too...

It certainly isn't helpful that we played the wheels off him the last couple of years, including some stretches where he was being played through injuries.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723008 is a reply to message #723005 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 12:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 12:08

jds308 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 16:59



There could be something to this, however, why is it that the opposition goalies we're facing all seem to be adjusting? Even games this season that we've scored a bunch of goals, I don't recall thinking, man their goalie is really struggling tonight. Maybe the odd goal, but off the top of my head I would say almost every goal the Oilers have scored has been on a high-quality chance.


McDavid is in on almost 60% of our offence, so that might be part of why we've seen so many highlight reel goals. The Oilers other lines have all been caved in for shots metrics, so we have made it easy on opposing goalies - even the ones that have struggled.

We've also seen a high percentage of backups so far this year...haven't really taken advantage of that.

Lots of goalies struggle at certain times, and Talbot's been consistently a slow starter. Only thing that has me really concerned is his age. Some goalies drop off the map now. Bill Ranford went pretty quickly from one of the best in the game to out of the league at 33...it's far from certain that Talbot's best days aren't now behind him too...

It certainly isn't helpful that we played the wheels off him the last couple of years, including some stretches where he was being played through injuries.


Problem with Talbot is other than the last couple of months last season, his slow start started last the second game of last season.

Here is a question. Assuming Koskinen can continue to give you decent starts and assuming Talbot can round out his game so he's giving you decent starts. Would people be comfortable having both guys back if you could get them both signed for a similar cap hit as they cost right now? Hard question to answer yet but I just am looking ahead and I don't see anyone else who will be available that won't cost you a fortune going to be available.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723009 is a reply to message #723008 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 12:38

Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 12:08

jds308 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 16:59



There could be something to this, however, why is it that the opposition goalies we're facing all seem to be adjusting? Even games this season that we've scored a bunch of goals, I don't recall thinking, man their goalie is really struggling tonight. Maybe the odd goal, but off the top of my head I would say almost every goal the Oilers have scored has been on a high-quality chance.


McDavid is in on almost 60% of our offence, so that might be part of why we've seen so many highlight reel goals. The Oilers other lines have all been caved in for shots metrics, so we have made it easy on opposing goalies - even the ones that have struggled.

We've also seen a high percentage of backups so far this year...haven't really taken advantage of that.

Lots of goalies struggle at certain times, and Talbot's been consistently a slow starter. Only thing that has me really concerned is his age. Some goalies drop off the map now. Bill Ranford went pretty quickly from one of the best in the game to out of the league at 33...it's far from certain that Talbot's best days aren't now behind him too...

It certainly isn't helpful that we played the wheels off him the last couple of years, including some stretches where he was being played through injuries.


Problem with Talbot is other than the last couple of months last season, his slow start started last the second game of last season.

Here is a question. Assuming Koskinen can continue to give you decent starts and assuming Talbot can round out his game so he's giving you decent starts. Would people be comfortable having both guys back if you could get them both signed for a similar cap hit as they cost right now? Hard question to answer yet but I just am looking ahead and I don't see anyone else who will be available that won't cost you a fortune going to be available.



Possibly. Depends if we see anything out of Talbot that changes the picture. It's worth noting, we haven't seen him sans McLellan yet. That could make a big difference...



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723015 is a reply to message #723009 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 12:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 12:38

Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 12:08

jds308 wrote on Mon, 19 November 2018 16:59



There could be something to this, however, why is it that the opposition goalies we're facing all seem to be adjusting? Even games this season that we've scored a bunch of goals, I don't recall thinking, man their goalie is really struggling tonight. Maybe the odd goal, but off the top of my head I would say almost every goal the Oilers have scored has been on a high-quality chance.


McDavid is in on almost 60% of our offence, so that might be part of why we've seen so many highlight reel goals. The Oilers other lines have all been caved in for shots metrics, so we have made it easy on opposing goalies - even the ones that have struggled.

We've also seen a high percentage of backups so far this year...haven't really taken advantage of that.

Lots of goalies struggle at certain times, and Talbot's been consistently a slow starter. Only thing that has me really concerned is his age. Some goalies drop off the map now. Bill Ranford went pretty quickly from one of the best in the game to out of the league at 33...it's far from certain that Talbot's best days aren't now behind him too...

It certainly isn't helpful that we played the wheels off him the last couple of years, including some stretches where he was being played through injuries.


Problem with Talbot is other than the last couple of months last season, his slow start started last the second game of last season.

Here is a question. Assuming Koskinen can continue to give you decent starts and assuming Talbot can round out his game so he's giving you decent starts. Would people be comfortable having both guys back if you could get them both signed for a similar cap hit as they cost right now? Hard question to answer yet but I just am looking ahead and I don't see anyone else who will be available that won't cost you a fortune going to be available.



Possibly. Depends if we see anything out of Talbot that changes the picture. It's worth noting, we haven't seen him sans McLellan yet. That could make a big difference...

So do you think McLellan is at fault for Talbot? McLellan didn't do a good enough job but I don't think he was the cause of Talbot spitting out crap rebounds or letting in garbage goals.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723025 is a reply to message #723015 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 14:26


So do you think McLellan is at fault for Talbot? McLellan didn't do a good enough job but I don't think he was the cause of Talbot spitting out crap rebounds or letting in garbage goals.


I think coaching impacts players, including goalies.

They can help or hinder with confidence, and their system can contribute to the kind of chances that a goalie has to face.

We will see if the coaching change impacts Talbot. It's far from unheard of. Remember when Eakins no longer coached Dubnyk and he became a Vezina candidate?



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723029 is a reply to message #723025 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 15:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 14:26


So do you think McLellan is at fault for Talbot? McLellan didn't do a good enough job but I don't think he was the cause of Talbot spitting out crap rebounds or letting in garbage goals.


I think coaching impacts players, including goalies.

They can help or hinder with confidence, and their system can contribute to the kind of chances that a goalie has to face.

We will see if the coaching change impacts Talbot. It's far from unheard of. Remember when Eakins no longer coached Dubnyk and he became a Vezina candidate?


I don't agree with goalies. The system or who the coach plays out there has no baring on the goalie not handling a routine shot properly. Talbot going down way earlier than he should doesn't have anything to do with the system. When the opposition comes into the zone, the dman angles him towards the boards and a bad angle shot gets in, that's got nothing to do with system. Talbot has been struggling because he can't make a freaking save.

When it comes to Dubnyk. The Oilers game up on him because he couldn't make a save. He goes to Nashville, they play him twice, actually come and say to the public he sucks. Waive him. Montreal picks him up and puts him in the minors for the rest of the year because they think he isn't NHL material. He by his own admission, feared for his career so he trained differently and started playing differently. Signs with Arizona for not much more than the league minimum. With Burke's help, finds his game and then goes to Minnie. So if you count it up. After Eakins and the Oilers goalie coach, he had Nashville's HC and their goalie coach, then Montreal HC and their goalie coach, then Arizona HC and either goalie coach before he went to Minnie. PLus who ever else worked with him in the offseason. So after he left the Oilers, it took 3 HC's, 3 goalie coaches and another offseason coach to turn him into the Dubnyk now. So 7 different people. Eakins was a horrible head coach but I can't blame him for Dubnyk.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723039 is a reply to message #723029 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xombie  is currently offline Xombie
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 15:03

Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 15:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 14:26


So do you think McLellan is at fault for Talbot? McLellan didn't do a good enough job but I don't think he was the cause of Talbot spitting out crap rebounds or letting in garbage goals.


I think coaching impacts players, including goalies.

They can help or hinder with confidence, and their system can contribute to the kind of chances that a goalie has to face.

We will see if the coaching change impacts Talbot. It's far from unheard of. Remember when Eakins no longer coached Dubnyk and he became a Vezina candidate?


I don't agree with goalies. The system or who the coach plays out there has no baring on the goalie not handling a routine shot properly. Talbot going down way earlier than he should doesn't have anything to do with the system. When the opposition comes into the zone, the dman angles him towards the boards and a bad angle shot gets in, that's got nothing to do with system. Talbot has been struggling because he can't make a freaking save.

When it comes to Dubnyk. The Oilers game up on him because he couldn't make a save. He goes to Nashville, they play him twice, actually come and say to the public he sucks. Waive him. Montreal picks him up and puts him in the minors for the rest of the year because they think he isn't NHL material. He by his own admission, feared for his career so he trained differently and started playing differently. Signs with Arizona for not much more than the league minimum. With Burke's help, finds his game and then goes to Minnie. So if you count it up. After Eakins and the Oilers goalie coach, he had Nashville's HC and their goalie coach, then Montreal HC and their goalie coach, then Arizona HC and either goalie coach before he went to Minnie. PLus who ever else worked with him in the offseason. So after he left the Oilers, it took 3 HC's, 3 goalie coaches and another offseason coach to turn him into the Dubnyk now. So 7 different people. Eakins was a horrible head coach but I can't blame him for Dubnyk.


Truth about Doobie.

I think what Adam meant was that traditionally Ken Hitchcock's systems have made goalies look good. Similar to the way goaltenders always look good in Minny and Jersey.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #723073 is a reply to message #723039 ]
Fri, 23 November 2018 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Xombie wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 20:08

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 15:03

Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 15:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 14:26


So do you think McLellan is at fault for Talbot? McLellan didn't do a good enough job but I don't think he was the cause of Talbot spitting out crap rebounds or letting in garbage goals.


I think coaching impacts players, including goalies.

They can help or hinder with confidence, and their system can contribute to the kind of chances that a goalie has to face.

We will see if the coaching change impacts Talbot. It's far from unheard of. Remember when Eakins no longer coached Dubnyk and he became a Vezina candidate?


I don't agree with goalies. The system or who the coach plays out there has no baring on the goalie not handling a routine shot properly. Talbot going down way earlier than he should doesn't have anything to do with the system. When the opposition comes into the zone, the dman angles him towards the boards and a bad angle shot gets in, that's got nothing to do with system. Talbot has been struggling because he can't make a freaking save.

When it comes to Dubnyk. The Oilers game up on him because he couldn't make a save. He goes to Nashville, they play him twice, actually come and say to the public he sucks. Waive him. Montreal picks him up and puts him in the minors for the rest of the year because they think he isn't NHL material. He by his own admission, feared for his career so he trained differently and started playing differently. Signs with Arizona for not much more than the league minimum. With Burke's help, finds his game and then goes to Minnie. So if you count it up. After Eakins and the Oilers goalie coach, he had Nashville's HC and their goalie coach, then Montreal HC and their goalie coach, then Arizona HC and either goalie coach before he went to Minnie. PLus who ever else worked with him in the offseason. So after he left the Oilers, it took 3 HC's, 3 goalie coaches and another offseason coach to turn him into the Dubnyk now. So 7 different people. Eakins was a horrible head coach but I can't blame him for Dubnyk.


Truth about Doobie.

I think what Adam meant was that traditionally Ken Hitchcock's systems have made goalies look good. Similar to the way goaltenders always look good in Minny and Jersey.


I agree. If you play a lock down defensive style then your goalies numbers can look better because he's not getting as many shots but the goalie still has to make saves. There is no system out there that can keep a team from getting no chances.

Then when I look at the goalies numbers. Koskinen .913 vs Talbot .888. Koskinen 2.65 vs Talbot 3.30. So that is a 22 point difference in save percentage and .65 GA difference. That was playing under the same system with the same guys. That is massive.

McLellan and his system has flaws, it wasn't working and he got fired for it. But in my opinion, unless Talbot figures out what his problem is, a system change isn't going to help him. He needs to make a save period. The numbers between the 2 goalies doesn't lie. I hope like hell Talbot figures it out because this team will need him to be better.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #724562 is a reply to message #723073 ]
Tue, 11 December 2018 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GabbyDugan  is currently offline GabbyDugan
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....NHL goaltending still fascinates and baffles me....but I'm starting to think Koskinen is indeed a capable NHL goalie and Cam Talbot still can be useful to this team....if not, the backup plan to these two is what?....

...The Ducks claimed Chad Johnson from the Blues, and at the same time Ryan Miller was placed on IR for the next six weeks estimated..."Miller is 4-2-1 this season with a .922 save percentage and 2.72 goals-against average."...."Johnson has a 2-6 record this season with an .884 save percentage and a 3.55 goals-against average. He last recorded a win on Nov. 9."...

https://www.tsn.ca/ducks-claim-g-johnson-miller-out-six-week s-1.1224544





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 Re: Goaltending [message #725206 is a reply to message #724562 ]
Sat, 15 December 2018 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh2.0  is currently offline Babaganoosh2.0
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I used to be of the mind that it would be best to move Talbot but that fancy has passed. A goalie on his term and contract. I mean were not going to find a better backup cheaper and as good as Talbot. I'd say keep him unless we're eliminated by the deadline.


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 Re: Goaltending [message #723040 is a reply to message #723029 ]
Thu, 22 November 2018 20:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 16:03

Adam wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 15:47

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 22 November 2018 14:26


So do you think McLellan is at fault for Talbot? McLellan didn't do a good enough job but I don't think he was the cause of Talbot spitting out crap rebounds or letting in garbage goals.


I think coaching impacts players, including goalies.

They can help or hinder with confidence, and their system can contribute to the kind of chances that a goalie has to face.

We will see if the coaching change impacts Talbot. It's far from unheard of. Remember when Eakins no longer coached Dubnyk and he became a Vezina candidate?


I don't agree with goalies. The system or who the coach plays out there has no baring on the goalie not handling a routine shot properly. Talbot going down way earlier than he should doesn't have anything to do with the system. When the opposition comes into the zone, the dman angles him towards the boards and a bad angle shot gets in, that's got nothing to do with system. Talbot has been struggling because he can't make a freaking save.

When it comes to Dubnyk. The Oilers game up on him because he couldn't make a save. He goes to Nashville, they play him twice, actually come and say to the public he sucks. Waive him. Montreal picks him up and puts him in the minors for the rest of the year because they think he isn't NHL material. He by his own admission, feared for his career so he trained differently and started playing differently. Signs with Arizona for not much more than the league minimum. With Burke's help, finds his game and then goes to Minnie. So if you count it up. After Eakins and the Oilers goalie coach, he had Nashville's HC and their goalie coach, then Montreal HC and their goalie coach, then Arizona HC and either goalie coach before he went to Minnie. PLus who ever else worked with him in the offseason. So after he left the Oilers, it took 3 HC's, 3 goalie coaches and another offseason coach to turn him into the Dubnyk now. So 7 different people. Eakins was a horrible head coach but I can't blame him for Dubnyk.


That whole paragraph was just 1 year though. Lots of goalies have a bad year. Not many get to do it on an embarrassing team like ours in a year they have a kid with a coach that coaches the team to not cover the slot and a GM that before the season starts says he's probably not a #1 goalie. Then MacT scapegoats him to try to mask his and his coaches failures which only got worse over the next year before the coach was fired and then the GM after.

As many words as you can write about the last half of that 1 bad season to make it seem like some huge long run of badness over multiple teams, it was still just some months out of a decade+ long career, and it is all pretty meaningless. His confidence was toast, he needed the summer to get it together again. That's the story of many good goalies who have bad seasons.


In the end, Dubs has had 1 bad year out of the last 9. Few goalies come close to putting a run together like that. We were idiots to not try to keep working with him. In the end, he just needed support, a little motivation and some proper coaching. Good orgs find ways to give their players these things and don't need them to hit rock bottom and sign somewhere else before they do.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 November 2018 20:28]


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 Re: Goaltending [message #722668 is a reply to message #722662 ]
Mon, 19 November 2018 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jds308  is currently offline jds308
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Maybe a crazy suggestion here but, what about sending Talbot down to the A on a "conditioning stint" for a few games to get his crap together? Bring Montoya up to back-up Koskinen. My limited understanding of the rules would be that A) Talbot would have to agree to it and B) We would have to carry 3 goalies on the NHL roster for that time.

More to the point though.... Talbot is having a rough go of it here no doubt, so is the team though. These guys need to start burying their chances and give their goalies some goal support so allowing a bad goal here and there isn't so catastrophic. Team defense needs to get better too. Why is it that the opposition constantly gets free looks right in the slot with nobody within 10 feet of them? Yeah, the goalie needs to make a save now and then, but come on! Our guys are never left WIDE effin' open in front of the other goalie! Combine that with Talbot letting in every high quality shot against and far too many medium quality chances and you're not winning many games.

Agree with others here. Play Koskinen as the #1 from here on. Make Talbot earn his spot back. We have no NHL goalie signed beyond this season, so unless one of them takes the job by the balls and earns a contract we could be in trouble next year. It's not like proven #1 goalies grow on trees.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #724569 is a reply to message #722629 ]
Tue, 11 December 2018 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm  is currently offline Oscargasm
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Every time Hitch is asked about Talbot or Koski, he replies with “goaltending is the strength of this team”. He loves both guys. Talbot won’t be traded.


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 Re: Goaltending [message #724572 is a reply to message #724569 ]
Tue, 11 December 2018 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Oscargasm wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:15

Every time Hitch is asked about Talbot or Koski, he replies with “goaltending is the strength of this team”. He loves both guys. Talbot won’t be traded.

Even if he doesn't love his goaltending and he's had to change tactics to hide their flaws, he's doing it. That puts the tenders in position to succeed.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #724573 is a reply to message #724572 ]
Tue, 11 December 2018 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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First of all, I do agree that Hitch probably loves his goalies. Quite frankly, what coach wouldn't like what Hitch has when both guys are playing well. For most teams, they have a starter and then there is a drop off to the back up. For most teams, you expect your starter to give you the bulk of the starts, say 55 - 60 games, hope your starter can win say 35-40 games of the 60 and then you have your back up can be good enough to keep your team close in games and be around .500, you are really happy. With the Oilers, if both guys are playing well, you could split them and there isn't much of a drop off.

That being said, if you are confident in Koskinen and he can continue to play well and if to get Parayko, you have to give up Talbot and maybe as part of the ultimate package you got back a Johnson who for the most part has been a decent NHL back up, I don't think Hitch would be upset. They need more puck moving. more mobility and more offense from the defense. Hitch knows it and has said it. Right now they lack that for the defense core and they even lack enough quality right shots to play 3 in their top 6.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #724574 is a reply to message #724573 ]
Tue, 11 December 2018 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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If Talbot or Koski are the center pieces for a top 4 d-man, that deal is done yesterday... we all know the price that the Oilers are willing to pay for that position.


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 Re: Goaltending [message #724575 is a reply to message #724573 ]
Tue, 11 December 2018 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 12:41

First of all, I do agree that Hitch probably loves his goalies. Quite frankly, what coach wouldn't like what Hitch has when both guys are playing well. For most teams, they have a starter and then there is a drop off to the back up. For most teams, you expect your starter to give you the bulk of the starts, say 55 - 60 games, hope your starter can win say 35-40 games of the 60 and then you have your back up can be good enough to keep your team close in games and be around .500, you are really happy. With the Oilers, if both guys are playing well, you could split them and there isn't much of a drop off.

That being said, if you are confident in Koskinen and he can continue to play well and if to get Parayko, you have to give up Talbot and maybe as part of the ultimate package you got back a Johnson who for the most part has been a decent NHL back up, I don't think Hitch would be upset. They need more puck moving. more mobility and more offense from the defense. Hitch knows it and has said it. Right now they lack that for the defense core and they even lack enough quality right shots to play 3 in their top 6.


60 games for starters is old school, and it's not shown to be optimal over the last decade or so. If your starting goalie is at 60 games at the end of the regular season, your chances of going all the way to the final don't look great. 50/32 is probably a reasonable split - which means you do need two good goalies now. It also keeps both guys fresh if the back-up is playing every few days.

As for putting the season in the hands of Koskinen based on ~14 games worth of data? I think that is taking a pretty extreme risk. If he falters or gets injured and you miss the playoffs because of that? That should be cause for dismissal as a GM.

If you have a lame duck GM (as I believe we now do), and you're worried about his ability to make trades and assess players, I think it would be foolish to give him the latitude to take that risky a gamble.




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 Re: Goaltending [message #724576 is a reply to message #724575 ]
Tue, 11 December 2018 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 12:54

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 12:41

First of all, I do agree that Hitch probably loves his goalies. Quite frankly, what coach wouldn't like what Hitch has when both guys are playing well. For most teams, they have a starter and then there is a drop off to the back up. For most teams, you expect your starter to give you the bulk of the starts, say 55 - 60 games, hope your starter can win say 35-40 games of the 60 and then you have your back up can be good enough to keep your team close in games and be around .500, you are really happy. With the Oilers, if both guys are playing well, you could split them and there isn't much of a drop off.

That being said, if you are confident in Koskinen and he can continue to play well and if to get Parayko, you have to give up Talbot and maybe as part of the ultimate package you got back a Johnson who for the most part has been a decent NHL back up, I don't think Hitch would be upset. They need more puck moving. more mobility and more offense from the defense. Hitch knows it and has said it. Right now they lack that for the defense core and they even lack enough quality right shots to play 3 in their top 6.


60 games for starters is old school, and it's not shown to be optimal over the last decade or so. If your starting goalie is at 60 games at the end of the regular season, your chances of going all the way to the final don't look great. 50/32 is probably a reasonable split - which means you do need two good goalies now. It also keeps both guys fresh if the back-up is playing every few days.

As for putting the season in the hands of Koskinen based on ~14 games worth of data? I think that is taking a pretty extreme risk. If he falters or gets injured and you miss the playoffs because of that? That should be cause for dismissal as a GM.

If you have a lame duck GM (as I believe we now do), and you're worried about his ability to make trades and assess players, I think it would be foolish to give him the latitude to take that risky a gamble.



I understand that you don't want 60+ games from a starter especially in the West but I don't think 50 is realistic for most teams. Maybe you think differently but taking injury out of the equation, how many teams realistically have a back up good enough to play over 30 games? If Vasilevsky didn't get hurt are you seriously telling me he'd play 50 games? Come on. Jets, same boat. Toronto. There are 3 of the top teams in the NHL. Gibson has been in 26 of the Ducks first 32.

When it comes to what I said. Yes Koskinen's sample size is small. Yes the Oilers goaltending situation is right now ideal because it looks like you could easily do your preferred 50-32 split with 2 good guys. But if you could land Parayko and the Blues said they needed Talbot back as part of the package and the money all worked, are you Adam if you are GM saying no to that? Talbot is a UFA, if by chance Koskinen can keep going, you probably aren't bringing Talbot back. With the return being Parayko who would check a crap load of boxes the Oilers need, how do you turn that down? If you had Larsson and Parayko as your top 2 right shot dmen, you are set for a while. Then next season, you have Bouchard on your 3rd pairing playing sheltered mins with some PP time. So in a couple of seasons, he's taking Larsson's spot in the top 4 and you are set for a long, long time.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #725096 is a reply to message #724576 ]
Fri, 14 December 2018 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 16:09

Then next season, you have Bouchard on your 3rd pairing playing sheltered mins with some PP time. So in a couple of seasons, he's taking Larsson's spot in the top 4 and you are set for a long, long time.


Would you do Talbot + Bouchard for Parayko?



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 Re: Goaltending [message #725207 is a reply to message #725096 ]
Sat, 15 December 2018 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh2.0  is currently offline Babaganoosh2.0
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Mike wrote on Fri, 14 December 2018 19:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 16:09

Then next season, you have Bouchard on your 3rd pairing playing sheltered mins with some PP time. So in a couple of seasons, he's taking Larsson's spot in the top 4 and you are set for a long, long time.


Would you do Talbot + Bouchard for Parayko?

In a heartbeat. Parayko is already what we hope Bouchard will turn into. This teams window is now.



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 Re: Goaltending [message #725324 is a reply to message #725096 ]
Mon, 17 December 2018 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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Mike wrote on Fri, 14 December 2018 19:06

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 16:09

Then next season, you have Bouchard on your 3rd pairing playing sheltered mins with some PP time. So in a couple of seasons, he's taking Larsson's spot in the top 4 and you are set for a long, long time.


Would you do Talbot + Bouchard for Parayko?


I don't think I would just because Yes the Oilers need to improve the defense right now but I think Bouchard is going to be on the team next season and making an impact for them so trading him I think doesn't help the Oilers. The Oilers finally have some prospects coming but they don't have enough so I don't see the value in trading their #1 prospect. Secondly, in a few years, the Oilers are going to be without Sekera and Russel - hopefully sooner than that for Sekera. They need replacements for them AND in a cap world, they need cheap replacements.

I would much rather take out Bouchard and add in say Jones who's in the NHL showing what he can do and a pick to sweeten it vs give up Bouchard. Hell, as much as I love him, I would much rather send Larsson back instead of Bouchard to the Blues. In a season or 2, if you have Parayko and Bouchard as your top 2, right shots getting fed pucks by McDavid for one timers, you'd be set.



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