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 Trade Comparables [message #710375]
Tue, 27 February 2018 10:14 Go to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
Messages: 8737
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Frank Vatrano for 2018 3rd round pick
23 y.o. Winger, 5'9, 180 lbs. RFA.
- 2016-17 44GP, 10-8-18
- 2017-18 25GP, 2-0-2

Michael Grabner for 2018 2nd round pick plus Igor Rykov (5th rd pick dman in KHL w/ 14 pts in 51 games this year)
30 y.o. Winger, 6'1, 188 lbs. UFA.
- 2016-17 76GP, 27-13-40
- 2017-18 59GP, 25-6-31

Derrick Brassard w/ Vince Dunn & 2018 3rd rd pick for Ian Cole, Filip Gustavsson (goalie prospect in Sweden, 2nd rd pick in 2016) 2018 1st rd pick, 2019 3rd rd pick
30 y.o. Center, 6'1, 204 lbs. One more year at $5MM.
- 2016-17 81GP, 14-25-39
- 2017-18 58GP, 18-20-38

Rick Nash for 2018 1st-Round Pick, Ryan Spooner, Matt Beleskey, Ryan Lindgren (2016 2nd rd pick, 2-5-7 in 33 GP in Big Ten (NCAA)), 2019 7th-Round Pick
33 y.o. Winger, 6'4, 211 lbs. UFA.
- 2016-17 67GP, 23-15-38
- 2017-18 60GP, 18-10-28

Tomas Plekanec w/ Kyle Baun for Kerby Rychel (F, 30 pts in 55 AHL GP), Rinat Valiev (D, 15 pts in 40 AHL GP), 2018 2nd rd pick
35 y.o. Center, 5'11, 193 lbs. UFA.
- 2016-17 78GP, 10-18-28
- 2017-18 60GP, 6-18-24

Ryan Hartman w/ 2018 5th rd pick for Victor Ejdsell (F, 30 pts in44 SweHL GP), 2018 1st rd pick, 2018 4th rd pick
23 y.o. Winger, 6'0, 181 lbs. RFA.
- 2016-17 76GP, 19-12-31
- 2017-18 57GP, 8-17-25

Paul Stastny for Erik Foley (F, 2015 3rd rd pick, 34 pts in 32 GP in H-East (NCAA)), 2018 1st Rd Pick, 2020 cond. 4th Rd Pick
32 y.o. Center, 6'0, 193 lbs. UFA.
- 2016-17 66GP, 18-22-40
- 2017-18 63GP, 12-28-40

Evander Kane for Danny O'Regan (F, 25 pts in 31 AHL GP, 4pts in 19 NHL GP), Cond. 2019 1st Rd Pick, Cond. 2020 4th Rd Pick
26 y.o. Winger, 6'0, 193 lbs. UFA.
- 2016-17 70GP, 28-15-42
- 2017-18 61GP, 20-20-40

Thomas Vanek for Jussi Jokinen & Tyler Motte (F, 11 pts in 17 AHL GP, 5 pts in 31 NHL GP)
34 y.o. Winger, 6'2, 214 lbs. UFA.
- 2016-17 68GP, 17-31-48
- 2017-18 61GP, 17-24-41

Tomas Tatar for 2018 1st Rd Pick, 2019 2nd Rd Pick and 2021 3rd Rd Pick
27 y.o. Winger, 5'10, 185 lbs. 3 more years at $5.3MM/season.
- 2016-17 82GP, 25-21-46
- 2017-18 62GP, 16-12-28

Patrick Maroon for 2019 3rd Rd Pick and JD Dudek ()
29 y.o. Winger, 6'3, 225 lbs. UFA.
- 2016-17 81GP, 27-15-42
- 2017-18 57GP, 14-16-30

That's a pretty good group of comparables. There's differences to all players of course, but these are all forwards (other than Vatrano) that scored between 28-48 pts last year and between 24-41 points this year.

There were a few big losers - notably, Buffalo, Vancouver and Edmonton. I don't think it's a coincidence that these teams are all perennially at the bottom of the league. All three GMs waited way too late to make a move, and all three got reduced value when they got panicked at the end of the flurry.

Management is key in building a successful hockey team, and this again shows you what happens when you don't have competent people at the top. For Maroon to fetch a similar return to what the Bruins received for Frank Vatrano is ridiculously poor value. When you add in the fact that Chiarelli, by his own admission, didn't even really explore trading Cammalleri, it's a very poor showing - even if he got an extra pick for Davidson and a bubble NHLer for Letestu.



"This team needs an enema!"
#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan #FireBobbyNicks

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710376 is a reply to message #710375 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
Messages: 10293
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 10:14


There were a few big losers - notably, Buffalo, Vancouver and Edmonton. I don't think it's a coincidence that these teams are all perennially at the bottom of the league. All three GMs waited way too late to make a move, and all three got reduced value when they got panicked at the end of the flurry.




Hilarious footnote. Apparently Benning and the Buffalo GM complained after the deadline how tough the market was, just like Chia did.

We are definitely up the creek without a paddle. But hey, at least we're not alone.



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710379 is a reply to message #710376 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OilMJMOil  is currently offline OilMJMOil
Messages: 1051
Registered: May 2009
Location: Saskatoon

1 Cup

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 11:18

Adam wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 10:14


There were a few big losers - notably, Buffalo, Vancouver and Edmonton. I don't think it's a coincidence that these teams are all perennially at the bottom of the league. All three GMs waited way too late to make a move, and all three got reduced value when they got panicked at the end of the flurry.




Hilarious footnote. Apparently Benning and the Buffalo GM complained after the deadline how tough the market was, just like Chia did.

We are definitely up the creek without a paddle. But hey, at least we're not alone.


Just wait till the three of them, Benning, Botterill and Chia, get together on a three-way deal at the draft.

EDIT: Just realized, the three of them can be the BBC. They leave a path of destruction wherever they go.

[Updated on: Tue, 27 February 2018 10:44]


2016: We need to get heavier, and we need a defenseman!

2018: We need to get faster, and we need a defenseman!

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710383 is a reply to message #710379 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Suomalainen  is currently offline Suomalainen
Messages: 2390
Registered: May 2002
Location: Austin, TX

2 Cups

They'll be there alright, together winning the lottery


97.

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710385 is a reply to message #710383 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
Messages: 6325
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Suomalainen wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 11:04

They'll be there alright, together winning the lottery

I hope a useful team wins the lottery. I want all three special needs GMs get their feint hope scooped by someone who won't waste another top 3 talent.



Peter Chiarelli, General Disappointment.

Drink wine, fall faster, and fly. Fly, baby, fly.

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710387 is a reply to message #710375 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndersonRules  is currently offline AndersonRules
Messages: 258
Registered: April 2008
Location: Shawnee, Oklahoma (OKC ar...

No Cups

Adam:

I don't disagree with your overall conclusions (that Chiarelli didn't get sufficient value for Maroon, and that overall he has been below average as a GM), but I do question some of your methodology. Several of your comparables just aren't comparable.

Vatrano and Hartman are RFA, not UFA, at season's end. Thus, they are under the acquiring club's control beyond this year. That adds significant value, and should increase the cost of acquisition. (Incidentally, it also means they are younger, which also adds value.)

Brassard and Tatar have remaining term past the end of this year (1 yr and 3 yrs respectively). That, again, adds significant value, unless their contracts are perceived as boat anchors, which theirs aren't.

Those four, I think, are disanalogies - they are poor comparables for Maroon, who is strictly a trade deadline rental who will go UFA at season's end.

I'm still disappointed with the return for Maroon - quite shocked, actually, that he garners a lesser (arguably) return than Letestu. That said, I was very pleased with the return for Letestu. So for the trade deadline as a whole, I would give Chiarelli a hesitant pass.



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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710396 is a reply to message #710387 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
b_1_b  is currently offline b_1_b
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2005

No Cups

AndersonRules wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 12:22

...So for the trade deadline as a whole, I would give Chiarelli a hesitant pass.


And that is the exact problem year after f'n year with this organization. They are content with this being the standard (a hesitant pass). In a bloody vacuum that result for one trade deadline day may be okay. But this pattern of poor job performance has really screwed this team up for the foreseeable future and there is no chance the fools at the top can or will fix it.
The last time I was this disinterested in Oilers hockey was the January of the year they lucked into getting McDavid and I swore I was done supporting and watching this team until the OBC was taken apart. I was fooled when they were forced to bring someone from the outside in to oversee rebuild part 3 or 4 or 5 whatever the number was. I figured that Nicholson was an okay start to some change (although he really had no experience for his position in an NHL capacity, it was a start). The Chiarelli hiring I was willing to give him a chance as a new set of eyes but his history of screwing over the Bruins with poor asset management and bad contracts (sound familiar) had me worried. The McLellan hiring also seemed passable at the time due to his regular season successes in San Jose and his reputation around the league.
Ultimately, if Nicholson doesn't do his job and relieve the GM and coach of their jobs after this cluster f* of a season then he also needs to go. I have to say that numerous posts throughout this season talking about no accountability starting at the top from Katz on down should be a sign that this team is not going anywhere anytime soon without change in GM and coaches, even with arguably the best player in the world signed for 8 more years.
Anyone naive enough to justify the GM's and coaches body of work over the last 3+ seasons and still thinks that they are the answer to moving this team forward are truly not looking at the facts. Enough of the we need stability at those positions BS as we constantly have turn over at those positions. Well if you can't get the job done it doesn't matter about keeping it stable. It's like wanting to keep the ship from turning over while it's taking on massive amounts of water and as it slowly settles on the bottom sitting upright you can all pat each other on the back and say perfect the management of this team is finally stable. Meanwhile back in reality your ship that was supposed to be sailing high and dry is on the bottom the ocean/league.
It's a results based league and quite frankly the people at the top have not consistently gotten those results. Yes last year playoffs were great, so were the cup runs in the 80's. They are both in the rear view mirror. Time to make changes after this season and hope to god someone competent can come in and salvage what is left.
The saddest part of it all is the Vegas example...Our GM and coaches should hand in their resignations based on that comparison of roster and results alone.

[Updated on: Tue, 27 February 2018 12:37]


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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710627 is a reply to message #710387 ]
Wed, 28 February 2018 12:27 Go to previous message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
Messages: 8737
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

AndersonRules wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 11:22

Adam:

I don't disagree with your overall conclusions (that Chiarelli didn't get sufficient value for Maroon, and that overall he has been below average as a GM), but I do question some of your methodology. Several of your comparables just aren't comparable.

Vatrano and Hartman are RFA, not UFA, at season's end. Thus, they are under the acquiring club's control beyond this year. That adds significant value, and should increase the cost of acquisition. (Incidentally, it also means they are younger, which also adds value.)

Brassard and Tatar have remaining term past the end of this year (1 yr and 3 yrs respectively). That, again, adds significant value, unless their contracts are perceived as boat anchors, which theirs aren't.

Those four, I think, are disanalogies - they are poor comparables for Maroon, who is strictly a trade deadline rental who will go UFA at season's end.

I'm still disappointed with the return for Maroon - quite shocked, actually, that he garners a lesser (arguably) return than Letestu. That said, I was very pleased with the return for Letestu. So for the trade deadline as a whole, I would give Chiarelli a hesitant pass.


So there's never any perfect comparables, but when it comes to trades, I do think RFAs and UFAs can be compared.

Vatrano is 6 years younger than Maroon, but his trajectory isn't great. 2 points this year. He's also a waterbug - tiny at 5'9. Even though you get to keep his rights for a while yet, is he ever going to be a 40-point player? If the Oilers were in a playoff hunt and had a 3rd round pick and could use it to trade for Vatrano, or partner it with a dead-end prospect and get Maroon - even just as a playoff rental - what would you rather see them do?

Hartman is again scoring at a lower pace than Maroon, on a team where he's been able to play with some pretty good players too. Again, if the team was looking at playoffs and you could give up A) a 1st, 4th and decent prospect for Hartman as RFA, or B) a 3rd and a crappy prospect for Maroon as impending UFA, which would you hope the team did? I don't think it's close. The Devils did very well here.

As for the guys with term left on their deal, those are large contracts that you have to fit in to the salary structure going forward. It's another aspect of the deal, but doesn't make them not comparable at all.

Even if you remove those players, you still have Nash, Plekanec, Stasny, Kane and Vanek. Maroon's contributions compare favourably with the first two, and lag the other three. Other than Vancouver, everyone got significantly more than the Oilers did.



"This team needs an enema!"
#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan #FireBobbyNicks

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710393 is a reply to message #710375 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
WhoreableGuy  is currently offline WhoreableGuy
Messages: 1197
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary

1 Cup

Benning and Chia are cut from the same cloth. Here’s a video showing Chiarelli, right hand man in Edmonton Keith Gretzky, Jim Benning and Don Sweeney all in the same room discussing about trading Seguin.

The Oilers have 2 of those guys running our team and with Benning and Don Sweeney in there as well, is this the biggest collection of bad GM’s we will ever see?




"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710395 is a reply to message #710393 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skoobz  is currently offline Skoobz
Messages: 1328
Registered: January 2006
Location: McDavidisneyland

1 Cup

What horror movie is that youtube video from??? doh

People who are as stupid as the Bruins management is in that video don't recover from it, and generally can't compensate for it.



"[It was] really cool to throw on the Oilers gear, the gear that I want to play the rest of my life wearing. It was pretty cool to put it on. With all the history, it was a lot of fun." - Connor McDavid, July 1, 2015

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710398 is a reply to message #710393 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PoolParty  is currently offline PoolParty
Messages: 144
Registered: November 2009
Location: Edmonton

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WhoreableGuy wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 12:07

Benning and Chia are cut from the same cloth. Here’s a video showing Chiarelli, right hand man in Edmonton Keith Gretzky, Jim Benning and Don Sweeney all in the same room discussing about trading Seguin.

The Oilers have 2 of those guys running our team and with Benning and Don Sweeney in there as well, is this the biggest collection of bad GM’s we will ever see?




Did anyone see the common theme in that clip? It was mentioned that Seguin didn't fit inside the teams culture multiple times and therefore they wanted to find some players that were a better fit for the team.

I can honestly say at my work we have let go several good employees because they didn't fit in. Sometimes its about more then just being able to do your job well.

I would bet every last dollar i have that this was one of the major reasons Hall was moved, he didn't fit inside the culture the team was wanting to build.



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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710401 is a reply to message #710398 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
b_1_b  is currently offline b_1_b
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2005

No Cups

[quote title=PoolParty wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 13:44]
WhoreableGuy wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 12:07

Benning and Chia are cut from the same cloth. Here’s a video showing Chiarelli, right hand man in Edmonton Keith Gretzky, Jim Benning and Don Sweeney all in the same room discussing about trading Seguin...he didn't fit inside the culture the team was wanting to build.


What culture is that constantly losing? You're damn rights he didn't want to be apart of that culture. Don't even try to justify that as the reason why Hall was moved. He was moved as the GM said himself ...that was the going price. Bad overall trade, bad asset management period! No other reason. Move along with that line of rational.



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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710404 is a reply to message #710401 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PoolParty  is currently offline PoolParty
Messages: 144
Registered: November 2009
Location: Edmonton

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[quote title=b_1_b wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 12:51]
PoolParty wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 13:44

WhoreableGuy wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 12:07

Benning and Chia are cut from the same cloth. Here’s a video showing Chiarelli, right hand man in Edmonton Keith Gretzky, Jim Benning and Don Sweeney all in the same room discussing about trading Seguin...he didn't fit inside the culture the team was wanting to build.


What culture is that constantly losing? You're damn rights he didn't want to be apart of that culture. Don't even try to justify that as the reason why Hall was moved. He was moved as the GM said himself ...that was the going price. Bad overall trade, bad asset management period! No other reason. Move along with that line of rational.


And you are looking at the trade as a fan once you pull off your blue and orange glasses and look at it from a organisational POV its easy to understand. You are taking from a perceived area of strength (scoring wingers) and addressing a weakness (NHL Dman), which should in turn make the team better ....... and look at how we did the next season (this season well i think had we been healthy would be another story). This trade also had the added benefit of moving out a player that wasn't seen as a culture fit, addition by subtraction.



This forum has turned into a pessimistic cesspool of bitching and whining about the same topics consistently.

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710407 is a reply to message #710404 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
b_1_b  is currently offline b_1_b
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2005

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PoolParty wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 14:03

This trade also had the added benefit of moving out a player that wasn't seen as a culture fit, addition by subtraction.
Any facts to back that up? Thought not. Keep spewing the BS mainstream media line that Hall was a problem and a major need was fixed by getting Larson. Rather keep your blinders on to the failings of this current iteration of Oilers Management and spew BS. I like Larsson but Chiarelli got fleeced in that deal and still didn't address the teams needs.



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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710409 is a reply to message #710407 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PoolParty  is currently offline PoolParty
Messages: 144
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Location: Edmonton

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b_1_b wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 13:13

PoolParty wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 14:03

This trade also had the added benefit of moving out a player that wasn't seen as a culture fit, addition by subtraction.
Any facts to back that up? Thought not. Keep spewing the BS mainstream media line that Hall was a problem and a major need was fixed by getting Larson. Rather keep your blinders on to the failings of this current iteration of Oilers Management and spew BS. I like Larsson but Chiarelli got fleeced in that deal and still didn't address the teams needs.


I had multiple interactions with him, several of the guys i played hockey with work for OEG and add to that i have spent significant time with a current NHL agent and former Oiler. Taylor Hall is a DICK this was a contributing factor to him being moved.

I never said the trade was even or fair, some times you lose a trade but end out coming ahead. IMO i think the oil came out ahead.



This forum has turned into a pessimistic cesspool of bitching and whining about the same topics consistently.

#Adam #Kr55 #CrusaderPi

#RDOilerfan is possibly reformed, time will tell.

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710436 is a reply to message #710409 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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PoolParty wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 13:26

b_1_b wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 13:13

Any facts to back that up? Thought not. Keep spewing the BS mainstream media line that Hall was a problem and a major need was fixed by getting Larson. Rather keep your blinders on to the failings of this current iteration of Oilers Management and spew BS. I like Larsson but Chiarelli got fleeced in that deal and still didn't address the teams needs.


I had multiple interactions with him, several of the guys i played hockey with work for OEG and add to that i have spent significant time with a current NHL agent and former Oiler. Taylor Hall is a DICK this was a contributing factor to him being moved.

I never said the trade was even or fair, some times you lose a trade but end out coming ahead. IMO i think the oil came out ahead.



So much to unpack here.

I fully believe that Hall can be a tool. I've known or met a few people who had unfavourable interactions with him. He does still seem popular with former teammates though. Horcoff repeatedly invited him to his golf tournament, even after he'd moved on from Edmonton. Whitney tweets back and forth with him and had him on his show. He was at Eberle's wedding. He had Nurse and McDavid at some summer charity event that he put on. There's evidence to suggest that he's not alienated everyone within the team.

I don't think that's a big reason to trade someone - especially a young talented player. I think strong coaching and team leadership are needed to bring young players in to line sometimes. A lot of these guys have big egos, and they've not dealt much with adversity. They're used to being the hockey equivalent to the big man on campus, and that gets reinforced when they are revered in a hockey fishbowl like Edmonton.

But it's important that the team deal head on with behavioural issues and make it clear to players what is expected of them and how come it's important. In a fishbowl, you can be the god until you're not, and that can come very suddenly.

I don't think that Hall is going to be the last person with a difficult personality that the Oilers are going to land. They need to have an organization that figures out how to deal with that, because if it's simply to trade them away for lesser players, then the team loses and gets worse and we never will win the Cup.

Messier and Anderson were far from angels when they joined the league. They both had challenging aspects to their personality and Sather helped to mold them. If the Oilers had simply said goodbye to Messier when he missed a flight, or to Anderson for being weird and awkward, they would have likely been a much worse team, and they definitely don't win in 1990. As with every group of people, some require more attention than others. This version of Oilers management - really since Sather left - doesn't seem to understand that. They are constantly struggling with personalities, and we hear about it after every trade. They're extremely willing to comment, sometimes even on the record, about how players don't fit in for whatever reason. It's all cover for the bigger issues:

1. The team doesn't know how to deal with personalities that don't conform to their expectations.

2. They don't understand that behaviour can be modified with strong leadership and mentoring.

3. They take the path of least resistance in trading these players, but they usually prepare the groundwork by making sure the media is reporting that there are some behavioural issues.

4. They are unable to attain a reasonable return for these players, resulting in the continual erosion of talent within the organization.



"This team needs an enema!"
#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan #FireBobbyNicks

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710461 is a reply to message #710436 ]
Tue, 27 February 2018 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PoolParty  is currently offline PoolParty
Messages: 144
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Location: Edmonton

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Well put adam


This forum has turned into a pessimistic cesspool of bitching and whining about the same topics consistently.

#Adam #Kr55 #CrusaderPi

#RDOilerfan is possibly reformed, time will tell.

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 Re: Trade Comparables [message #710623 is a reply to message #710401 ]
Wed, 28 February 2018 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh  is currently offline Babaganoosh
Messages: 1128
Registered: January 2009
Location: Medicine Hat,AB

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[quote title=b_1_b wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 12:51]
PoolParty wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 13:44

WhoreableGuy wrote on Tue, 27 February 2018 12:07

Benning and Chia are cut from the same cloth. Here’s a video showing Chiarelli, right hand man in Edmonton Keith Gretzky, Jim Benning and Don Sweeney all in the same room discussing about trading Seguin...he didn't fit inside the culture the team was wanting to build.


What culture is that constantly losing? You're damn rights he didn't want to be apart of that culture. Don't even try to justify that as the reason why Hall was moved. He was moved as the GM said himself ...that was the going price. Bad overall trade, bad asset management period! No other reason. Move along with that line of rational.

Pretty much my thoughts when I hear that culture crap. He didn't fit in. Probably cause he's not a loser. Im glad he escaped this pit and made something of his career.



" If you have anything good to say, say it off!"

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