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 NHL » Three GMs talk about the end of fighting
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 Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #608312]
Wed, 02 October 2013 12:56 Go to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
Messages: 9874
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/darren_dreger/?id=433262

Yzerman, Rutherford and Shero all suggest it should be penalized more harshly.

Quote:

"Yes, I believe a player should get a game misconduct for fighting," Yzerman told The Dreger Report. "We penalize and suspend players for making contact with the head while checking, in an effort to reduce head injuries, yet we still allow fighting.

"We're stuck in the middle and need to decide what kind of sport do we want to be. Either anything goes and we accept the consequences, or take the next step and eliminate fighting."


That's a big step.



#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireEakins #FireActon #FireSmith #FireBuchberger #FireMoores #Burnitdown #KeepJoey

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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #608313 is a reply to message #608312 ]
Wed, 02 October 2013 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hmc  is currently offline hmc
Messages: 4054
Registered: May 2008
Location: Toronto

4 Cups

Whatever. Did Yzerman ever even play the game?


Then I'll just regress, because I feel I've made myself perfectly redundant.

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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #608346 is a reply to message #608312 ]
Wed, 02 October 2013 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goalpost  is currently offline goalpost
Messages: 941
Registered: March 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Agree with Yzerman and Shero.

The NHL is in large part responsible for the fighter arms race in the NHL [started right under their noses in the Atlantic and Metropolitan divisions].

Lack of enforcement, poor rules in the first instance and otherwise being wilfully blind and indirectly promoting this has helped Boston create the physical / intimidating team and win a cup that others are now modelling.

It is a way to beat skill without skill.

There will always be that physicality in the game with hitting etc. and fighting may continue to play a role, but a better balance needs to be struck.


However, the solution starts and ends with the NHL.


As long the NHL continues to refuse to accept responsibility for the situation the fact will remain that there is this foolishness out there [ie. Toronto-Buffalo game] and while you don't have to like it you are foolish to go into a gun fight holding the rule book.

You don't have to like it but you better be prepared for it, and the NHL is solely responsible for that.



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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #608354 is a reply to message #608346 ]
Wed, 02 October 2013 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
Messages: 6481
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

6 Cups

Personally, I thought 2005-2006 was some of the best hockey I have ever seen. I never watched as much hockey as I did that season. All the Oilers games, as many Pens and Caps games as I could, and when none of those were on, then pretty much any game was entertaining.

Things were being called really tight and skill seemed to shine through.

Incidentally - since 2000, that is the season that saw the fewest fights per game according to this site

http://www.hockeyfights.com/stats/

I don't hate fighting - I don't mind watching a good scrap. But I am a much bigger fan of good skilled hockey. Good hard clean hits are fine and add to the game IMO. But fights? I wouldn't really miss them - there's always the UFC and boxing if you really need to see someone get punched.



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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #608360 is a reply to message #608354 ]
Wed, 02 October 2013 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hibernia  is currently offline Hibernia
Messages: 1654
Registered: October 1998
Location: Sin John's

1 Cup

I couldn't agree more Mike. You know who else was fun to watch that year... the Sens. Out on the Rock, the Sens are our local team for television sake, so, even without centre ice, we get lots of Sens games and that year I watched a load of 'em.(Mike you know that. I'm just pointing it out for those that probably think we're all brainwashed by the Leafs or Habs out this way.) If I was a young impressionable hockey fan, I totally would've been a Sens fan after that season. They were perhaps the most dangerous offensive team in the league that year.


Kool-Aid Addict!

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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #609540 is a reply to message #608312 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
v4ance  is currently offline v4ance
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Registered: July 2008
Location: Calgary

2 Cups

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/there-is-a-plac e-for-fighting-in-hockey-bobby-orr/article14850429/?page=1


Bobby Orr defends fighting in the professional game but wants it removed from amateur levels. A very well thought out piece from a legend.



Jordan Eberle on his goal scoring: "A lot of guys joke that I have a muffin. Well, it's an accurate muffin, and that's all that counts."

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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #609666 is a reply to message #609540 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goalpost  is currently offline goalpost
Messages: 941
Registered: March 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Thanks for sharing that v4ance.


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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #611579 is a reply to message #608312 ]
Fri, 25 October 2013 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
goalpost  is currently offline goalpost
Messages: 941
Registered: March 2007
Location: Edmonton

No Cups

Thought this was a prudent time to bump this thread.

Perfect example of the NHL creating the fighting problem.

The Sabres are victimized by Boston and the Lucic hit, and not only does Lucic give the Sabres' best player a concussion he mocks and humiliates the Sabres:
Quote:

“Definitely,” Lucic said when asked if the response would have been different if Thomas had been hit like that. “We wouldn’t accept anything like that. We would have taken care of business, but we’re a different team than they are.”


Read more at: http://nesn.com/2011/11/ryan-miller-calls-milan-lucic-gutles s-for-hit-on-goalie-but-sabres-lack-of-response-was-truly-gu tles/



And then the NHL sanctifies it with a hearing that clears Lucic.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2011- 11-14/lucic-miller-hit/51194296/1


And beyond the concussion to Miller, Lucic's public humiliation is spot on as the the Sabres and Sabres players get criticized by the media for THEIR ROLE and not only permit it but accept the humiliation:

Quote:


The Sabres didn’t come to Miller’s defence, save for a few shoves by forward Thomas Vanek and defenceman Andrej Sekera.

Tough guy Paul Gaustad, who was on the ice with Vanek, Sekera, Tyler Myers and Jason Pominville, appeared to regret not taking action.

"You could go to each one of our players and they would tell you that they wished they had dealt with it differently," Regier said. "And they will deal with it differently in the future … We were all disappointed."

Myers was scratched for the team's game Monday night in Montreal.


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/lucic-not-suspended-for- miller-hit-1.1053519



So the Sabres do what is reasonable.

To borrow a line from Lucic -- they become a "different team" so that they can "take care of business."

And now the GMs, the NHL, the sportswriters want to sit on top of their soapboxes because it's John Scott and not Chara or Lucic from the Bruins.

Borrowing from Skookum:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/canadian-doctor -zdeno-chara-deserved-80-games-pacioretty-145748541.html
Satan (about 1:05)
http://hockeybadasses.com/satan-tells-chara-to-go-to-hell/



And John Scott is getting vilified why… because he stood up for Tropp who is now sipping his meals through a straw with a broken jaw after facing a goon in Devane and a goon team in Toronto [Frazer, Orr].

Nothing wrong with Toronto being goons, after all Toronto is just trying to win like the goons Boston won.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mirt le-leafs-goon-culture-comes-back-to-bite-them/article1448912 2/




The double standard is palpable.

If you are going to ice a goon team you had better do it in Toronto, Philadelphia or Boston where the NHL permits its and promotes it.



And it's not just Buffalo that has responded to the Boston and Toronto goons… its Montreal [Paros / Moen] or Ottawa [Kassian] and a collection of other teams.


Because the fact remains -- a suspended goon role player is better than your star getting injured [concussions are long term / career threatening] either by a goon [Lucic / Chara / Orr / Frazer] or the stupid and dangerous play that these goons permit because Kessel can slash and spear you and let Orr and Frazer face the consequences.



This is created by the inconsistency / lack of proper player discipline in the NHL that is trying to balance big markets winning and promoting the NHL [without talent because goons are a cheap method of winning without talent] and player safety.



The real problem here for both the Sabres and John Scott is that the Sabres are located in Buffalo, not Boston or Toronto.

[Updated on: Fri, 25 October 2013 10:34]


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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #611599 is a reply to message #611579 ]
Fri, 25 October 2013 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
Messages: 9874
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

I disagree to a point. I think that Scott deserves a suspension, because I think his hit was dirty. It was a clear head shot.

That said, I'll agree that the NHL is inconsistent in their rulings. The Lucic hit on Miller was anything but incidental contact. There probably should have been a suspension on that play, because I don't believe he was an innocent as Shanahan makes him sound.

It was surprising there wasn't any response from the Sabres on that play, but I don't think John Scott running one of their players in a dirty manner two years later is excused in any manner due to that. Certainly, the Bruins Adam McQuaid lived up to what Lucic said and responded to Scott on the ice, for all that that was worth.

I've said for years, regarding fighting, all that it should be is that you're thrown out of the game if you fight. Automatic game misconduct. The only exception would be where the other guy obviously instigated the fight (simply because you don't want someone targeting a star to start a fight and get them kicked out).

If there's a game misconduct, you'd see the number of fights drop and you'd go a long way towards eliminating the guys who are there only to fight. What's the point in employing McGratton or MacIntyre if they skate out for three seconds, drop the gloves and then are gone to the showers? It also forces teams to decide when a response is really needed. If someone runs your goalie like Lucic did, maybe that's worth dropping the gloves and fighting about. If someone catches a third liner with a perfectly clean hit (think Staios on Stephane Vellieux from a few years back), then there's no cause to fight. As it is, I think that response comes too often right now. Every time there's a hard clean hit, you have people dropping the gloves and getting in to it, and I don't see the point of that. If they knew that ended their night, I think you'd see players be a little more choosy about when to pick their spots.

Interesting to note that the CJHL (which includes the AMJHL) has just moved to adopt that rule. I'd like to see that at every level.



#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireEakins #FireActon #FireSmith #FireBuchberger #FireMoores #Burnitdown #KeepJoey

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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #611607 is a reply to message #611599 ]
Fri, 25 October 2013 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigEfromGP  is currently offline bigEfromGP
Messages: 2284
Registered: July 2006
Location: GP, AB

2 Cups

I brought up the discussion this morning that the AJHL had moved to this, and that the GP Storm coach said, paraphrased here, that it's been coming, he's happy to see it, that they have only had a handful of fights anyways and that they didn't have any impact in the game. He continued that he completely agrees with it because its about protecting the kids (his words).

I loved to hear him say that. And agreed with everything he said. And the response from the 4 or 5 guys around me, my co-workers?

"Pff. Ruining hockey"
"next they will take away hitting"
"at least we still have MMA"
"guess I am done watching them"

Not the most scientific poll or sample size ever, but their responses led me to believe this: fighting in the NHL is here to stay for some time, regardless of the players health implications or how hockey purists, which I think many on this site are or flirt with, feel about it. The unwashed masses, they pay the bills unfortunately, and they demand blood.



oilerinvan should never leave Oilfans.

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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #611611 is a reply to message #611607 ]
Fri, 25 October 2013 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
Messages: 4359
Registered: December 2003
Location: Republic of Alberta

4 Cups

bigEfromGP wrote on Fri, 25 October 2013 14:48

I brought up the discussion this morning that the AJHL had moved to this, and that the GP Storm coach said, paraphrased here, that it's been coming, he's happy to see it, that they have only had a handful of fights anyways and that they didn't have any impact in the game. He continued that he completely agrees with it because its about protecting the kids (his words).

I loved to hear him say that. And agreed with everything he said. And the response from the 4 or 5 guys around me, my co-workers?

"Pff. Ruining hockey"
"next they will take away hitting"
"at least we still have MMA"
"guess I am done watching them"

Not the most scientific poll or sample size ever, but their responses led me to believe this: fighting in the NHL is here to stay for some time, regardless of the players health implications or how hockey purists, which I think many on this site are or flirt with, feel about it. The unwashed masses, they pay the bills unfortunately, and they demand blood.

I don't demand blood, but I certainly enjoy it. I've fallen in like with the AJHL over the past year mostly because the games feature a surprising about of skill, but also because I can sit close enough to listen to hormonal late teens slowly start to lose their composure. It doesn't require fighting, but fighting doesn't make it worse.



WAC's and GAB's. WAC's and GAB's.

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 Re: Three GMs talk about the end of fighting [message #612696 is a reply to message #608312 ]
Fri, 01 November 2013 12:34 Go to previous message
v4ance  is currently offline v4ance
Messages: 2582
Registered: July 2008
Location: Calgary

2 Cups

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2013/10/30/pro-figh ting-column/3320245/

It's not a perfect system. Not every fight is a good fight. Not every fighter is a perfect policeman. There are a small number of rats in the game who live outside the code. But our game is improved tremendously by players' ability to police the game. It makes it more exciting and honorable. It allows skill players to focus on the skilled aspects of the game because someone else can watch their back. And it fundamentally makes our game safer.

These are all volunteers, folks. Highly compensated volunteers who accepted full contact and fighting as part of the job description, long before they got big dough to do so. And it's not like they aren't aware of the risks before they lace 'em up. To suggest otherwise would be silly. Like a matador saying, "Say, who let that big, angry bull in here?"


The NHL has three levels to protect its players. The third level is the Player Safety Department that punishes players who cross the line. They are essential; the last line of player protection. The second is the Officiating Department, the absolute best in the world.

But the first level, on every pond and outdoor rink in North America, is peer accountability. This was the first level of protection when we opened our doors more than 100 years ago. It still is. And that is as it should be. The first line of defense against players crossing the line is players.



Jordan Eberle on his goal scoring: "A lot of guys joke that I have a muffin. Well, it's an accurate muffin, and that's all that counts."

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