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 Oilers » Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR
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 Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616230]
Wed, 27 November 2013 15:46 Go to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Per Oilers Twitter... Grebeshkov recalled.

Why do you hate me, Oilers? What have I done? And why can't I quit you?



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616231 is a reply to message #616230 ]
Wed, 27 November 2013 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hmc  is currently offline hmc
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I like Grebs. Better option than many.


Then I'll just regress, because I feel I've made myself perfectly redundant.

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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616233 is a reply to message #616231 ]
Wed, 27 November 2013 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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hmc wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 15:49

I like Grebs. Better option than many.


It's pretty well documented that I do not.

I'd have liked Fedun recalled if Larsen isn't ready to play. Maybe even Brad Hunt, who looked good in preseason and is putting up some solid OKC numbers.



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616235 is a reply to message #616233 ]
Wed, 27 November 2013 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hmc  is currently offline hmc
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mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 17:55

hmc wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 15:49

I like Grebs. Better option than many.


It's pretty well documented that I do not.

I'd have liked Fedun recalled if Larsen isn't ready to play. Maybe even Brad Hunt, who looked good in preseason and is putting up some solid OKC numbers.


It is extremely well documented that you don't. icon_wink

I thought Fedun was pretty meh. Potter is meh. Larsen has been meh, just fooling people because he got some points that one time. Senior Schultz has been somewhere below meh.

Our defense is bad, is what I'm saying.



Then I'll just regress, because I feel I've made myself perfectly redundant.

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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616236 is a reply to message #616235 ]
Wed, 27 November 2013 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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hmc wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 16:08

mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 17:55

hmc wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 15:49

I like Grebs. Better option than many.


It's pretty well documented that I do not.

I'd have liked Fedun recalled if Larsen isn't ready to play. Maybe even Brad Hunt, who looked good in preseason and is putting up some solid OKC numbers.


It is extremely well documented that you don't. icon_wink

I thought Fedun was pretty meh. Potter is meh. Larsen has been meh, just fooling people because he got some points that one time. Senior Schultz has been somewhere below meh.

Our defense is bad, is what I'm saying.


The one thing with Grebeshkov that he has above Fedun, Potter and Larsen is that for a while, he was a pretty good NHL defenceman. Reviled here, but that's Edmonton fans with higher risk/higher reward defencemen - we all only remember the screw-ups.

No one else at the bottom of the roster has recorded a 37 point NHL season. Actually, no one else on the entire defence roster for the organization can say that besides Dennis Grebeshkov.

It's not like he's an old man either. Maybe he isn't the same guy, but he should not have dropped that far.



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616252 is a reply to message #616236 ]
Wed, 27 November 2013 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bryan Halls Toupee  is currently offline Bryan Halls Toupee
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Adam wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 16:27

It's not like he's an old man either. Maybe he isn't the same guy, but he should not have dropped that far.


Sorta kinda the same, but now with a higher-pitched voice



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616256 is a reply to message #616233 ]
Wed, 27 November 2013 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum  is currently offline Magnum
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mightyreasoner wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 15:55

hmc wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 15:49

I like Grebs. Better option than many.


It's pretty well documented that I do not.

I'd have liked Fedun recalled if Larsen isn't ready to play. Maybe even Brad Hunt, who looked good in preseason and is putting up some solid OKC numbers.


Wow, have we really sunk so low? Grebs. Seriously. Just. Stop.



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616273 is a reply to message #616256 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 07:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skoobz  is currently offline Skoobz
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I don't think a 37-point season means much, in terms of the Oilers needs. They need solid and physical defence - which Grebs does not provide. At all. Ever.


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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616285 is a reply to message #616273 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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Skoobz wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 07:48

I don't think a 37-point season means much, in terms of the Oilers needs. They need solid and physical defence - which Grebs does not provide. At all. Ever.


I think it means he was on the right side of the puck a lot that year. It's easy to forget with how bad our defence has been for the past several years, but that was the year we had a healthy Souray, Luobmir Visnovsky, Tom Gilbert and a good Grebeshkov. Our forwards weren't great that year, but in the #4 spot, Grebeshkov did very well.

That's a few years removed, but if he could get to that form again, the Oilers could sure use a player like that.

As it is, he's #8 or #9 on the depth chart, so he's no where near that level, but he should be able to fill in as a #6. I don't think he's any more risky a player than Larsen - just older and with more preconceived notions set against him.



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616288 is a reply to message #616285 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 09:53

Skoobz wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 07:48

I don't think a 37-point season means much, in terms of the Oilers needs. They need solid and physical defence - which Grebs does not provide. At all. Ever.


As it is, he's #8 or #9 on the depth chart, so he's no where near that level, but he should be able to fill in as a #6. I don't think he's any more risky a player than Larsen - just older and with more preconceived notions set against him.


I think this is part of what I don't like. We basically know what we have with Grebs... a guy who had a good season in the NHL quite a few years ago, a guy who has struggled in recent years, a borderline NHLer that has some offensive skill, but who is incredibly inconsistent. He's in the back half of his career and really won't develop much beyond where he is now.

If we are contending and looking to win, you might take the guy who has more experience and may or may not be marginally better.

But the Oilers aren't contending. We want them to win, sure, but if it comes down between to fairly similar players - one that is younger and improving and factors in beyond this year with the Oilers and the other one that is older, declining and doesn't factor beyond this year - I think you play the guy who you can develop and grow.

I don't really see Grebs as a better option this year, much less beyond this year.



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616293 is a reply to message #616288 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:22

Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 09:53

Skoobz wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 07:48

I don't think a 37-point season means much, in terms of the Oilers needs. They need solid and physical defence - which Grebs does not provide. At all. Ever.


As it is, he's #8 or #9 on the depth chart, so he's no where near that level, but he should be able to fill in as a #6. I don't think he's any more risky a player than Larsen - just older and with more preconceived notions set against him.


I think this is part of what I don't like. We basically know what we have with Grebs... a guy who had a good season in the NHL quite a few years ago, a guy who has struggled in recent years, a borderline NHLer that has some offensive skill, but who is incredibly inconsistent. He's in the back half of his career and really won't develop much beyond where he is now.

If we are contending and looking to win, you might take the guy who has more experience and may or may not be marginally better.

But the Oilers aren't contending. We want them to win, sure, but if it comes down between to fairly similar players - one that is younger and improving and factors in beyond this year with the Oilers and the other one that is older, declining and doesn't factor beyond this year - I think you play the guy who you can develop and grow.

I don't really see Grebs as a better option this year, much less beyond this year.


But if you're talking development of a defenceman like Larsen, where does he develop more? As a bubble 6/7 guy getting 10-15 minutes in the NHL and bouncing in and out of the lineup? Or playing top pairing time of 20-25 minutes in the AHL.

I think unless a guy is a lock in the lineup at #5 or higher, if he's developing, he's better off in the minors with the last couple spots on the team going to guys that won't be hurt by sitting a few games here and there. I think the seventh defencemen is IDEALLY a guy who's got enough experience not to be overwhelmed when thrown in and not a real raw player.

The other side of that coin, is that given the losing ways up here, maybe being on a (slightly) better team in the minors is better for morale than being part of the eternal suck-itude here.

ETA: Link on Grebeshkov's performance of late:

http://oilersnation.com/2013/11/27/oilers-recall-grebeshkov

[Updated on: Thu, 28 November 2013 10:44]


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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616294 is a reply to message #616293 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:38

mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:22

Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 09:53

Skoobz wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 07:48

I don't think a 37-point season means much, in terms of the Oilers needs. They need solid and physical defence - which Grebs does not provide. At all. Ever.


As it is, he's #8 or #9 on the depth chart, so he's no where near that level, but he should be able to fill in as a #6. I don't think he's any more risky a player than Larsen - just older and with more preconceived notions set against him.


I think this is part of what I don't like. We basically know what we have with Grebs... a guy who had a good season in the NHL quite a few years ago, a guy who has struggled in recent years, a borderline NHLer that has some offensive skill, but who is incredibly inconsistent. He's in the back half of his career and really won't develop much beyond where he is now.

If we are contending and looking to win, you might take the guy who has more experience and may or may not be marginally better.

But the Oilers aren't contending. We want them to win, sure, but if it comes down between to fairly similar players - one that is younger and improving and factors in beyond this year with the Oilers and the other one that is older, declining and doesn't factor beyond this year - I think you play the guy who you can develop and grow.

I don't really see Grebs as a better option this year, much less beyond this year.


But if you're talking development of a defenceman like Larsen, where does he develop more? As a bubble 6/7 guy getting 10-15 minutes in the NHL and bouncing in and out of the lineup? Or playing top pairing time of 20-25 minutes in the AHL.

I think unless a guy is a lock in the lineup at #5 or higher, if he's developing, he's better off in the minors with the last couple spots on the team going to guys that won't be hurt by sitting a few games here and there. I think the seventh defencemen is IDEALLY a guy who's got enough experience not to be overwhelmed when thrown in and not a real raw player.

The other side of that coin, is that given the losing ways up here, maybe being on a (slightly) better team in the minors is better for morale than being part of the eternal suck-itude here.


See and for me the 5/6/7 is a great place to break guys into the NHL. I want them playing easy minutes when they first arrive, getting a feel for the game, honing their craft, and gradually working their way up the lineup. If they need to sit a few games in the pressbox here and there, it's okay.

I think it's a fine balance. Certainly playing guys heavy minutes in OKC can be beneficial... at least for a while. But eventually they have to make that jump, and you want that jump to be as seamless as possible. To me that means moving from 1st pairing OKC minutes to 3rd pairing NHL minutes.

An example might be this: there's no way that Justin Schultz should have been thrust into a Top-4 role last year, much less at Top-2 role. He did okay, I guess, but I don't think it was ideal for his development. Even now, I'd rather have him on the second pairing than on the first; I'm just not sure we have the depth to do this. Contrast that with Jeff Petry who was given time in OKC, called up, started on the third pairing with a group of Gilbert, Whitney, Smid, and Foster in front of him (still not a great group). He worked his way up to the lineup, getting more and more comfortable with matchups, and ultimately playing on our top pairing, making some of the guys in front of him expendable.

If the Oilers decide Nurse plays with the Oilers next year, and I'm not sure that's the right decision, no matter how good he looks, I hope he is starting on that third pairing with Andrew Ference and that we can address the depth issues above him.



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616296 is a reply to message #616294 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:48

Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:38

mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:22

Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 09:53

Skoobz wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 07:48

I don't think a 37-point season means much, in terms of the Oilers needs. They need solid and physical defence - which Grebs does not provide. At all. Ever.


As it is, he's #8 or #9 on the depth chart, so he's no where near that level, but he should be able to fill in as a #6. I don't think he's any more risky a player than Larsen - just older and with more preconceived notions set against him.


I think this is part of what I don't like. We basically know what we have with Grebs... a guy who had a good season in the NHL quite a few years ago, a guy who has struggled in recent years, a borderline NHLer that has some offensive skill, but who is incredibly inconsistent. He's in the back half of his career and really won't develop much beyond where he is now.

If we are contending and looking to win, you might take the guy who has more experience and may or may not be marginally better.

But the Oilers aren't contending. We want them to win, sure, but if it comes down between to fairly similar players - one that is younger and improving and factors in beyond this year with the Oilers and the other one that is older, declining and doesn't factor beyond this year - I think you play the guy who you can develop and grow.

I don't really see Grebs as a better option this year, much less beyond this year.


But if you're talking development of a defenceman like Larsen, where does he develop more? As a bubble 6/7 guy getting 10-15 minutes in the NHL and bouncing in and out of the lineup? Or playing top pairing time of 20-25 minutes in the AHL.

I think unless a guy is a lock in the lineup at #5 or higher, if he's developing, he's better off in the minors with the last couple spots on the team going to guys that won't be hurt by sitting a few games here and there. I think the seventh defencemen is IDEALLY a guy who's got enough experience not to be overwhelmed when thrown in and not a real raw player.

The other side of that coin, is that given the losing ways up here, maybe being on a (slightly) better team in the minors is better for morale than being part of the eternal suck-itude here.


See and for me the 5/6/7 is a great place to break guys into the NHL. I want them playing easy minutes when they first arrive, getting a feel for the game, honing their craft, and gradually working their way up the lineup. If they need to sit a few games in the pressbox here and there, it's okay.

I think it's a fine balance. Certainly playing guys heavy minutes in OKC can be beneficial... at least for a while. But eventually they have to make that jump, and you want that jump to be as seamless as possible. To me that means moving from 1st pairing OKC minutes to 3rd pairing NHL minutes.

An example might be this: there's no way that Justin Schultz should have been thrust into a Top-4 role last year, much less at Top-2 role. He did okay, I guess, but I don't think it was ideal for his development. Even now, I'd rather have him on the second pairing than on the first; I'm just not sure we have the depth to do this. Contrast that with Jeff Petry who was given time in OKC, called up, started on the third pairing with a group of Gilbert, Whitney, Smid, and Foster in front of him (still not a great group). He worked his way up to the lineup, getting more and more comfortable with matchups, and ultimately playing on our top pairing, making some of the guys in front of him expendable.

If the Oilers decide Nurse plays with the Oilers next year, and I'm not sure that's the right decision, no matter how good he looks, I hope he is starting on that third pairing with Andrew Ference and that we can address the depth issues above him.


A couple of points. I see the #5 spot as being the education spot, with 6/7 being guys who can be stable steady guys. I think a young guy should be in the lineup most nights. I'm sure there is something to be learned watching occasionally, but I don't think there's a lot to learn from sitting every other game.

As it is, Larsen is injured anyhow, but from my observations of him, I don't think he's an NHLer yet. He's got a good skillset, but just a huge amount of risk in his game. Lots of holes to work on and I don't think that the NHL is the best place to work on the structure of his game, especially with a team that's as fragile as the Oilers, because a mistake by him could cost the team the game.

Why don't I think he's ready? He was an absolute adventure the night he got three points. Provided some offence, but was atrocious in his own zone, finishing the night -3 with direct mistakes on every single goal he was on for in the evening. The game against Calgary, he was again directly responsible on the first goal, taking neither puck nor man, nor effectively blocking the passing lane. We talk about Justin Schultz needing work (I think he does), but he's miles and miles ahead of Larsen.

That said, Larsen may still be the choice of the organization when healthy over Grebeshkov, but as it sits now, he's hurt. I don't think there's a drop off to Grebeshkov from Fedun and he's probably a little more polished.

I've lost my patience with developing at this point. I want to see wins, so if there's a better current option, I would prefer we play that guy, even if it means that someone spends a little more time in the minors (which really, I don't see as a punishment or something negative - the best teams keep guys in the minors until they're ready to step in to a role on an NHL team...)



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616326 is a reply to message #616293 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 16:27 Go to previous message
Skoobz  is currently offline Skoobz
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Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:38

mightyreasoner wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 10:22

Adam wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 09:53

Skoobz wrote on Thu, 28 November 2013 07:48

I don't think a 37-point season means much, in terms of the Oilers needs. They need solid and physical defence - which Grebs does not provide. At all. Ever.


As it is, he's #8 or #9 on the depth chart, so he's no where near that level, but he should be able to fill in as a #6. I don't think he's any more risky a player than Larsen - just older and with more preconceived notions set against him.


I think this is part of what I don't like. We basically know what we have with Grebs... a guy who had a good season in the NHL quite a few years ago, a guy who has struggled in recent years, a borderline NHLer that has some offensive skill, but who is incredibly inconsistent. He's in the back half of his career and really won't develop much beyond where he is now.

If we are contending and looking to win, you might take the guy who has more experience and may or may not be marginally better.

But the Oilers aren't contending. We want them to win, sure, but if it comes down between to fairly similar players - one that is younger and improving and factors in beyond this year with the Oilers and the other one that is older, declining and doesn't factor beyond this year - I think you play the guy who you can develop and grow.

I don't really see Grebs as a better option this year, much less beyond this year.


But if you're talking development of a defenceman like Larsen, where does he develop more? As a bubble 6/7 guy getting 10-15 minutes in the NHL and bouncing in and out of the lineup? Or playing top pairing time of 20-25 minutes in the AHL.

I think unless a guy is a lock in the lineup at #5 or higher, if he's developing, he's better off in the minors with the last couple spots on the team going to guys that won't be hurt by sitting a few games here and there. I think the seventh defencemen is IDEALLY a guy who's got enough experience not to be overwhelmed when thrown in and not a real raw player.

The other side of that coin, is that given the losing ways up here, maybe being on a (slightly) better team in the minors is better for morale than being part of the eternal suck-itude here.

ETA: Link on Grebeshkov's performance of late:

http://oilersnation.com/2013/11/27/oilers-recall-grebeshkov


His AHL stats are reasonable. Worst case scenario isn't that different from best case scenario, I guess, so there's no point in getting worked up over this.



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 Re: Grebeshkov recalled; Larsen on the IR [message #616277 is a reply to message #616230 ]
Thu, 28 November 2013 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rocksteady  is currently offline Rocksteady
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I think it's fair to say crap for crap.

Our D is not good, so it really doesn't matter who you put in.

You can split hairs and say this guy sucks less than that guy, but really the defining banner is suck and the oil D wear that ... um.. proudly?



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