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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609658 is a reply to message #609656 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 21:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the flying stortini  is currently offline the flying stortini
Messages: 634
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No Cups

If a 1st gets you Miller, I'm all for a tenth Ryan on the team...

I could care less if the next first rounder turns into a stud in 2017, I want to see the team win NOW, and I've got a feeling MacT does too.

Pull the bold trigger!



http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z364/stortswasanoiler/Untitled-1.jpg中 RED DRAGONS 中
rukm01 wrote on Sun, 01 July 2012 21:54

Souray is a Duck is one letter away from being totally accurate.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609663 is a reply to message #609658 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
halfafrog  is currently offline halfafrog
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1 Cup

Hmm. We don't want to become the Flyers. They have had 23 goalies since 93 while New Jersey has had 1.

Having a good goalie is extremely important. Not sure what MacT was thinking. Obviously Lamorillo wanted another good goalie so he went after Schneider.

MacT knew he needed a goalie. He has little to lose getting Bryzgalov for $1.99/lb but at best that is a carousel answer.

We literally could be over 500 if we had better goaltending. The look on the "brain trust" was precious when Toronto scored the OT winner. I thought it was a penalty but....hey....it only counts if you aren't Toronto or Vancouver.....



I would like to be the first to thank Kevin Lowe for the lost decade....

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609680 is a reply to message #609663 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ales Cooper  is currently offline Ales Cooper
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halfafrog wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:17

Hmm. We don't want to become the Flyers. They have had 23 goalies since 93 while New Jersey has had 1.

Having a good goalie is extremely important. Not sure what MacT was thinking. Obviously Lamorillo wanted another good goalie so he went after Schneider.

MacT knew he needed a goalie. He has little to lose getting Bryzgalov for $1.99/lb but at best that is a carousel answer.

We literally could be over 500 if we had better goaltending. The look on the "brain trust" was precious when Toronto scored the OT winner. I thought it was a penalty but....hey....it only counts if you aren't Toronto or Vancouver.....

MacT was in on Schneider. Asking price was way more than NJ payed. It was discussed here. I'm not sold on Schneider as the next great goalie, but I'd take him over Dubnyk anyday.
Dubnyk stumbled into the worst possible time to spit the bed. His confidence is clearly shot. Whats Chabots take on this? More than that, what has Chabot done for goalie development?
Start Barbarella next game and see what he does. If he gets lit, call Bryz and take it from there
I'm not a Scooby Dooby Doo fan, and I just dont see him here this time next year, let alone in the nhl.



In fairness to Hall, I've wanted to throw a waterbottle at Eakins all season.
~nullterm 03/22/2014

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609665 is a reply to message #609591 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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3 Cups

If it means anything, I think I spotted the goalie coach Chabot up in the skybox with MacT...

"Craig, mon ami, believe me, I've tried, but I can't make chicken salad out of chicken %^$# .."

ala Casey Printer's famous foot in mouth on video...




Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609667 is a reply to message #609665 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hemskyfan99  is currently offline hemskyfan99
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2 Cups

Well I have been saying it for a while we should get Bryzgalov... maybe they will.


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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609668 is a reply to message #609667 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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6 Cups

I don't know what happened to Dubnyk, but he couldn't have picked a worse time to fall in the toilet. New GM, high expectations. He better pull a shutout out of his butt or he'll be off the Oilers before November.


Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609669 is a reply to message #609668 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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nullterm wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:25

I don't know what happened to Dubnyk, but he couldn't have picked a worse time to fall in the toilet. New GM, high expectations. He better pull a shutout out of his butt or he'll be off the Oilers before November.


Its refreshing to see accountability being applied in more than just providing sound bites for tehe media, Jones found out the hard way, as will Doobie.



Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609670 is a reply to message #609669 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:38

nullterm wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:25

I don't know what happened to Dubnyk, but he couldn't have picked a worse time to fall in the toilet. New GM, high expectations. He better pull a shutout out of his butt or he'll be off the Oilers before November.


Its refreshing to see accountability being applied in more than just providing sound bites for tehe media, Jones found out the hard way, as will Doobie.


Indeed! Both nice guys, but both guys didn't cut it this season. Finally some internal competitiveness. Hopefully that translates to the ice soon.

Weekes was on Gregor this week defending Dubnyk. I think that mighta been the kiss of death right there.

[Updated on: Sat, 12 October 2013 23:50]


Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609671 is a reply to message #609670 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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3 Cups

nullterm wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:48

Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:38

nullterm wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:25

I don't know what happened to Dubnyk, but he couldn't have picked a worse time to fall in the toilet. New GM, high expectations. He better pull a shutout out of his butt or he'll be off the Oilers before November.


Its refreshing to see accountability being applied in more than just providing sound bites for tehe media, Jones found out the hard way, as will Doobie.


Indeed! Both nice guys, but both guys didn't cut it this season. Finally some internal competitiveness. Hopefully that translates to the ice soon.

Weekes was on Gregor this week defending Dubnyk. I think that mighta been the kiss of death right there.



Heck, should've put Weekes in net!



Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609672 is a reply to message #609671 ]
Sat, 12 October 2013 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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Heh, what's the odds that Dubnyk returns from the road trip or is sent packing before the team is back in YEG?


Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609673 is a reply to message #609672 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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nullterm wrote on Sat, 12 October 2013 22:50

Heh, what's the odds that Dubnyk returns from the road trip or is sent packing before the team is back in YEG?


Odds are likely 0

I think they are screwed right now as an organization, hope they don't panic and make a stupid trade, like Philly continuously does.



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609674 is a reply to message #609673 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently online Magnum
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You can't evaluate Dubnyk based on four games, but you can know that he's been terrible in those four games. You have to look at his body of work, which suggests he's in a slump.

What's going on? Did he suffer some trauma like a car accident, or some other type of shell shock event? Is he injured?

Smyth is Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde so far this season, with a great first game, two stinkers, then an all-star performance tonight. He reminds me of Khabibulin. Some days he was off the charts good and some days it was just bad. Has anyone seen this trend in other older players?

I can't wait for Arcobello to get off the schnide. ALL of the guy's stats are great, he's tied with Hall for 1st in points, is the only regular forward with a positive +\-, his advanced stats are a thing of beauty. Good choice Eakins/MacT. Just imagine if he gets his nerves under control!?

When the season started I thought that the only major upgrade to the team was the possibility of Belov being a 3 or 4 d-man. So far it looks like he is.

The Nuge is the best.



Learning is the most important part of learning basic defence.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609678 is a reply to message #609674 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 02:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 00:31

You can't evaluate Dubnyk based on four games, but you can know that he's been terrible in those four games. You have to look at his body of work, which suggests he's in a slump.

What's going on? Did he suffer some trauma like a car accident, or some other type of shell shock event? Is he injured?

Smyth is Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde so far this season, with a great first game, two stinkers, then an all-star performance tonight. He reminds me of Khabibulin. Some days he was off the charts good and some days it was just bad. Has anyone seen this trend in other older players?

I can't wait for Arcobello to get off the schnide. ALL of the guy's stats are great, he's tied with Hall for 1st in points, is the only regular forward with a positive +\-, his advanced stats are a thing of beauty. Good choice Eakins/MacT. Just imagine if he gets his nerves under control!?

When the season started I thought that the only major upgrade to the team was the possibility of Belov being a 3 or 4 d-man. So far it looks like he is.

The Nuge is the best.


Definitely true on Dubnyk. Not a great time to come out flat, but he hasn't had it so far. Oilers need to do something to rebuild his confidence, whether that is give him a 2-3 game stretch to just watch or tell him they're coming back with him again, they need to do something.

I don't know that it's surprising that he's lost confidence. He put up a .920 save percentage last year, good for 16th best in the league, despite playing for a terrible team that leaked chances against. Despite that, he was singled out by his GM as someone who wasn't good enough, and then because all Oilers trade discussions get leaked, got to learn that the team spent the summer chasing replacements, including one in Bernier, who's got a far shorter resume. Add to that the changes to the goal, the stick and the pads, and he's got a laundry list of excuses at his fingertips. To his credit, I haven't heard him use any of them.

I still don't love the system and worry that we have an AHL system in the NHL. On Lupul's first goal, you could see the weakness of the scrum defence. Everyone clusters around Kadri, who makes a nice pass to Lupul who is WIDE open in front. when you watch the replay, you can see that all five Oilers are all on the same side of the rink - opposite where Lupul is. I am growing concerned that the system is an AHL system that works because the players in the AHL make those passes less often. With better players, it just leaves a lot of wide open guys.

As for the Yakupov scratch, I think that's coach self-aggrandizement. I hate seeing that. No lose situation for the coach. If the player comes back and struggles, coach says that's why he got benched to begin with. If he comes back strong - and eventually a talented player like that will score - then the coach takes credit.

I'm becoming a little worried that Eakins liked hearing the Toronto media talk him up all last year, because pulling a first overall pick in his second year when he is getting shots, despite not getting much icetime and few looks with top players...it's not something that happens very often. Friedman brought up Kovalchuk...that's a long long time ago. Let's face it, there were a lot of inferior players to Yakupov in our lineup tonight and we chose to be a worse team by benching him.

Add to that the silliness about the mix & match line combos in warm-up after doing no line rushes today, and I think that Eakins is being a little more cutesy than need be. I don't think that's going to give us any big edge.

As for Arcobello...he's playing really well. It's a shame that when Gagner comes back they're going to bench him in favour of Acton and potentially demote him. His play deserves to keep him up, but the story today on twitter was that Acton was told to find a place in Edmonton to live. It's funny with Acton...we had the same player last year and everyone hated him - in fact, the team bought him out because they didn't want him around. Belanger provided exactly what Acton does. Won faceoffs, killed penalties, created zero offence. I'm not sure what the team sees to glow about there. Five games in and the Gazdic/Acton/Brown line has five shots on goal and a single iffy scoring chance (iffy because it went in, but it wasn't a great chance.)

1-3-1 start and I can almost hear the team now talking in April about how if they could have just won a few more back at the start of the year...



#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireEakins #FireActon #FireSmith #FireBuchberger #FireMoores #Burnitdown #KeepJoey

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609683 is a reply to message #609678 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 07:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rukm01  is currently offline rukm01
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Adam wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 02:24

I don't know that it's surprising that he's lost confidence. He put up a .920 save percentage last year, good for 16th best in the league, despite playing for a terrible team that leaked chances against. Despite that, he was singled out by his GM as someone who wasn't good enough, and then because all Oilers trade discussions get leaked, got to learn that the team spent the summer chasing replacements, including one in Bernier, who's got a far shorter resume.



If Dubnyk really has the kind of eggshell confidence issues you suggest, then it's better knowing that going forward because he's simply not cut out for life as an NHL starter. As a backup? Sure. But if reading what MacT said in the summer is enough to derail your game, then enjoy packing your own bags in the ECHL.

That he's making Conklin look like a better option right now is all on Dubnyk.

And btw "16th best in the league"? If his mindset is anything akin to what you say, then what a loser mindset, because 16th best isn't exactly a number to be pulling rank with.



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609688 is a reply to message #609683 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently online Magnum
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rukm01 wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 07:38

Adam wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 02:24

I don't know that it's surprising that he's lost confidence. He put up a .920 save percentage last year, good for 16th best in the league, despite playing for a terrible team that leaked chances against. Despite that, he was singled out by his GM as someone who wasn't good enough, and then because all Oilers trade discussions get leaked, got to learn that the team spent the summer chasing replacements, including one in Bernier, who's got a far shorter resume.



If Dubnyk really has the kind of eggshell confidence issues you suggest, then it's better knowing that going forward because he's simply not cut out for life as an NHL starter. As a backup? Sure. But if reading what MacT said in the summer is enough to derail your game, then enjoy packing your own bags in the ECHL.

That he's making Conklin look like a better option right now is all on Dubnyk.

And btw "16th best in the league"? If his mindset is anything akin to what you say, then what a loser mindset, because 16th best isn't exactly a number to be pulling rank with.



Everyone gets rattled, which could be the issue.

If he's psychologically under-stable for the job, that's also something that can be worked on.



Learning is the most important part of learning basic defence.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609695 is a reply to message #609678 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mars  is currently offline Mars
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Great post Adam. A few comments:

If DD is as fragile as you are suggesting I am worried about trying to build around him. Trade talk and rumors are part of being a professional athlete.

Like you, i am growing concerned with Eakins' scrum system. From a very early age we are taught to stay in our lanes, to pick up our man and not chase the puck, but it sure looked like everyone was chasing the puck on the Lupal goal. It looked like a bunch of 5 year olds playing. Is this the system or was it a breakdown by one or more players?

If this team is serious about accountability and being a contender then Arco become the 3C to play with Yak or Hemsky once Gagner returns and Gordon becomes the 4C. Acton can go back to the minors where he belongs.



There is no absolute that this team will win with another coach, but I'd suggest that it is an absolute that this team will continue to be unsuccessful with the players' current level of attention, effort and turnovers.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609675 is a reply to message #609591 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 00:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hallsy  is currently offline Hallsy
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Heartbreaker on national television. I was one of the few people in a full house bar to sport my Oilers jersey.

As I've said before, more often than not I am a Dubnyk booster. It's hard to accept, and I know it's still really early in the season, but it's getting increasingly difficult to hype this guy when you look at his disgusting numbers thus far - or even just watch the guy struggle.

I don't believe that Dubnyk is a top 20 goaltender in this league (yet), I don't think it would be overly dramatic to seriously consider giving up a good young forward + for a top goaltender. At this very point (not being in the playoffs since 2006 & nasty win-loss season records) you need to stop playing favorites and top thinking that every thing we draft is going to be "the next one". The fact of the matter is, we're one of the absolute worst teams in the league. We have an ABUNDANCE of attractive young trade pieces. Best case scenario these guys will all pan out and then what? My biggest fear will come true, and we won't even be able to afford to keep them around! If D.D. can't step it up in the next 5 games, we should seriously start shopping one of Eberle, J.Schultz, Hall (one of my favorites), or Yakupov (+) (if you were an NHL GM, would you actually listen to any other names besides the untouchable Nuge?) to fetch a bonifide NHL starting goaltender.

I don't think this is over reacting anymore. Since we lost Cujo to the Leafs in 1998, we haven't seen one single reliable goaltender come through town. (15 years! Save for brief flashes of brilliance from Roli).

We have the right pieces to be a good club. A good goalie might just be what we need to boost the confidence.

The cheapest/best option? As mentioned by many on this site already, we should have The Ducks on speed dial at this point. You've got to think that by now MacT has at least taken notice of how weak we are in goal.....



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609679 is a reply to message #609591 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 03:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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All Dubnyk proves is that save percentages alone are BS, he's an awful goaltender, he's late in his development as pro, getting no better, maybe has even regressed, and all upside potential has runout, unfortuantely, what you see is what he is.

His reflexes make Ty Conklin look like a mongoose.

No clear option at present. We need to dig up a D. Roloson, without selling the farm, which will test MacT's GM abilities. The goalie they brought in during the pre-season looked good (played the Canucks game I was at), maybe he gets a try. Should be interesting times ahead.



Keep on Rockin' in the Free World

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609681 is a reply to message #609679 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 04:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oilerman53  is currently offline Oilerman53
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Dubnyk has lost every last bit of confidence he ever had. Every time the puck enters the zone on the oppositions stick Im cringing. Dubnyk has to make some saves, the tying goal was depressing as an Oilers fan. Lupuls shot should have been an easy butterfly paddle save. This is getting bad, the team is built to attack but what do they need to do so? They need reliablity and Dubnyk is playing a dangerous game with some very very very impatient fans. MacT needs to right this ship before were the way of the Titanic, god I can already see Leonardo DiCaprip standing on our stern!


After 8 years of ineptitude you begin to wonder whose the real schmuck? Them for sucking or me for cheering....... *cracks open bottle of whiskey*.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609684 is a reply to message #609681 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 08:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oilfanforever!!  is currently offline Oilfanforever!!
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I don't think you can hang all the fault on Dubey, our play in our own end has not exactly been stellar either but I think the majority of the fault is on Dubnyk...at this level alot of those goals simply have to be stopped.

I really want to like Dubnyk, he has had some amazing games in the past but a friend of mine used to work play by play in Kamloops when Dubey was there back in junior and says he hasn't changed one bit so maybe that's telling on his ability to improve.



"I hope that went well. ... that's the team I want to go to..." -Taylor Hall.

...asked if he was excited for the draft to be over, Yakupov said: "It's not over. It's just starting."

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609685 is a reply to message #609684 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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I can't believe there's not more outrage on the no call that led to the 3 on 1.

Hooking, holding, roughing...take your pick. If that was the other way around, the national media would be in an uproar that there was no call. Hell, when they were showing the replay, Leaf fan-boy Cherry was like "oh - well let's not get into that" when the sequence of Franson raping RNH was shown...

It was a penalty before he took a swing at the back of his head, let alone after it. Unbelievable.



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609729 is a reply to message #609685 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
messier11  is currently offline messier11
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Agreed, I was literally fuming during the game before that moment because the commentators were practically cheering for the Laffs. I literally blew a gasket when the refs decided they were cheering for them too angryfire


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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609686 is a reply to message #609679 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mars  is currently offline Mars
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Skookum Jim wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 03:05

All Dubnyk proves is that save percentages alone are BS, he's an awful goaltender, he's late in his development as pro, getting no better, maybe has even regressed, and all upside potential has runout, unfortuantely, what you see is what he is.

His reflexes make Ty Conklin look like a mongoose.

No clear option at present. We need to dig up a D. Roloson, without selling the farm, which will test MacT's GM abilities. The goalie they brought in during the pre-season looked good (played the Canucks game I was at), maybe he gets a try. Should be interesting times ahead.


It can't get much worse than a 6'6" goalie giving up a shot over his shoulder from the corner and then a wrap around. DD is not good enough and MacT better get this situation resolved soon, before it's too late.

Lupal's first goal was brutal defensive coverage with JSchultz and Gordon taking the puck carrier while leaving Lupal wide open.



There is no absolute that this team will win with another coach, but I'd suggest that it is an absolute that this team will continue to be unsuccessful with the players' current level of attention, effort and turnovers.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609689 is a reply to message #609686 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 09:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently online Magnum
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Mars wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 08:45

Skookum Jim wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 03:05

All Dubnyk proves is that save percentages alone are BS, he's an awful goaltender, he's late in his development as pro, getting no better, maybe has even regressed, and all upside potential has runout, unfortuantely, what you see is what he is.

His reflexes make Ty Conklin look like a mongoose.

No clear option at present. We need to dig up a D. Roloson, without selling the farm, which will test MacT's GM abilities. The goalie they brought in during the pre-season looked good (played the Canucks game I was at), maybe he gets a try. Should be interesting times ahead.


It can't get much worse than a 6'6" goalie giving up a shot over his shoulder from the corner and then a wrap around. DD is not good enough and MacT better get this situation resolved soon, before it's too late.

Lupal's first goal was brutal defensive coverage with JSchultz and Gordon taking the puck carrier while leaving Lupal wide open.


I hope MacT proves that he's not a reactionary GM and goes with a more tempered approach.



Learning is the most important part of learning basic defence.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609696 is a reply to message #609689 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mars  is currently offline Mars
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Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 09:08

Mars wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 08:45

Skookum Jim wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 03:05

All Dubnyk proves is that save percentages alone are BS, he's an awful goaltender, he's late in his development as pro, getting no better, maybe has even regressed, and all upside potential has runout, unfortuantely, what you see is what he is.

His reflexes make Ty Conklin look like a mongoose.

No clear option at present. We need to dig up a D. Roloson, without selling the farm, which will test MacT's GM abilities. The goalie they brought in during the pre-season looked good (played the Canucks game I was at), maybe he gets a try. Should be interesting times ahead.


It can't get much worse than a 6'6" goalie giving up a shot over his shoulder from the corner and then a wrap around. DD is not good enough and MacT better get this situation resolved soon, before it's too late.

Lupal's first goal was brutal defensive coverage with JSchultz and Gordon taking the puck carrier while leaving Lupal wide open.


I hope MacT proves that he's not a reactionary GM and goes with a more tempered approach.


My comment on MacT getting the situation resolved includes lighting a fire under the goaltending coach or sending DD to the minors to regain some confidence if he thinks he can get through waivers. Regardless of whether you are a DD fan or not, what's currently being done isn't working and I'm not convinced simply letting DD play through it is the right solution.

I'm a bit confused by some of your posts recently. In one thread you speak about accountability with Lowe and MacT and then in others you are fine with letting DD stink the joint out with no solution other than letting him play through it and hope for the best. While DD had good stats last season on a poor team, I suggest his entire body of work hasn't convinced many that he is starting goaltender material on a contender (arguably of course). In the other thread you suggest the young guys might not be taking things as seriously as they should because of behavior of Management, but yet you ignore the deflating impact of DD giving up garbage goals every game?



There is no absolute that this team will win with another coach, but I'd suggest that it is an absolute that this team will continue to be unsuccessful with the players' current level of attention, effort and turnovers.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609704 is a reply to message #609696 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently online Magnum
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First, I'm not talking about trading or sending any of the kids down. Second, there is a huge difference between being in a funk and being irresponsible.

As to demanding accountability from MacT and Lowe while accepting some poor results from Dubnyk, the main differences are time frame and degree of control. Lowe has had a long time to do good things, Dubnyk has had 13 days to recover from a slump. Lowe is doing things like hiring friends, changing the culture every year, and perpetuating an attitude irresponsibility; these are things within his control, while every player slumps and the degree of control in that situation hardly the same as Lowe's. The same goes for boozing it up when your employment requires otherwise.

That said, if there is a point where DD's performance requires a difficult decision, then hopefully MacT is responsible enough to make the difficult decision. You know I have no issue with immediately analyzing a situation, but when you make this type of decision, more data is required.

[Updated on: Sun, 13 October 2013 13:33]


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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609724 is a reply to message #609704 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mars  is currently offline Mars
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Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 13:29

First, I'm not talking about trading or sending any of the kids down. Second, there is a huge difference between being in a funk and being irresponsible.

As to demanding accountability from MacT and Lowe while accepting some poor results from Dubnyk, the main differences are time frame and degree of control. Lowe has had a long time to do good things, Dubnyk has had 13 days to recover from a slump. Lowe is doing things like hiring friends, changing the culture every year, and perpetuating an attitude irresponsibility; these are things within his control, while every player slumps and the degree of control in that situation hardly the same as Lowe's. The same goes for boozing it up when your employment requires otherwise.

That said, if there is a point where DD's performance requires a difficult decision, then hopefully MacT is responsible enough to make the difficult decision. You know I have no issue with immediately analyzing a situation, but when you make this type of decision, more data is required.


Fair enough.



There is no absolute that this team will win with another coach, but I'd suggest that it is an absolute that this team will continue to be unsuccessful with the players' current level of attention, effort and turnovers.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609710 is a reply to message #609696 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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Mars wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 09:52


My comment on MacT getting the situation resolved includes lighting a fire under the goaltending coach or sending DD to the minors to regain some confidence if he thinks he can get through waivers. Regardless of whether you are a DD fan or not, what's currently being done isn't working and I'm not convinced simply letting DD play through it is the right solution.

I'm a bit confused by some of your posts recently. In one thread you speak about accountability with Lowe and MacT and then in others you are fine with letting DD stink the joint out with no solution other than letting him play through it and hope for the best. While DD had good stats last season on a poor team, I suggest his entire body of work hasn't convinced many that he is starting goaltender material on a contender (arguably of course). In the other thread you suggest the young guys might not be taking things as seriously as they should because of behavior of Management, but yet you ignore the deflating impact of DD giving up garbage goals every game?


Reactionary moves are seldom the right ones. The season's only two weeks in. Dubnyk is 26 years old, so he's unlikely in decline. This is more likely a combination of some struggles, compounded by him putting a lot of extra pressure on himself to succeed, in no small part due to the way the organization has handled him.

I took a soccer course once that dealt a lot with coaching and said the conventional wisdom was the further from your own net a player played, the harder you could be on them. I think it makes sense, because the goalie already has the most pressure on him. For every Taylor Hall giveaway, how many end up in the net? Many don't even get to our zone before the puck is recovered. Not so for a goalie. He makes a mistake and it shows up on the scoreboard.

That doesn't mean there don't have to be consequences, but at the same time, I'm not willing to write off 8 years of organizational development over a two week time span. Sending him to the minors or exposing him to waivers is not the solution. Giving him a couple games off might be. Either that or throw the organization's support behind him, and give him the next game anyhow. Say that you think he's the team's starting netminder and that he just needs to get past his last couple of starts and focus on the future.

As for the poster suggesting that 16th best wasn't that great, please remember that he played for the team finishing 24th in the league last year and his numbers were comparable to most of the people most are clamouring to replace him. Except for Bryzgalov...he was much better than Bryz.



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609716 is a reply to message #609710 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the flying stortini  is currently offline the flying stortini
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When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.



http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z364/stortswasanoiler/Untitled-1.jpg中 RED DRAGONS 中
rukm01 wrote on Sun, 01 July 2012 21:54

Souray is a Duck is one letter away from being totally accurate.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609717 is a reply to message #609716 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently online Magnum
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the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?



Learning is the most important part of learning basic defence.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609718 is a reply to message #609717 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


Everyone of them. Just ask the stooges paying $100/seat.



Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609719 is a reply to message #609718 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently online Magnum
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nullterm wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 17:09

Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


Everyone of them. Just ask the stooges paying $100/seat.


You're abusing the point via semantics.



Learning is the most important part of learning basic defence.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609730 is a reply to message #609719 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nullterm  is currently offline nullterm
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Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:29

nullterm wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 17:09

Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


Everyone of them. Just ask the stooges paying $100/seat.


You're abusing the point via semantics.


How so?



Illegitimi non carborundum.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609734 is a reply to message #609717 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 17:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


An excellent point. Dubnyk has had some very good games. There's been none in his time with the Oilers where any of them make any difference, because we've never been close. It's the same reason why being 16th best is actually quite strong, because he's playing on a team that's lottery bad every year.

As I said before, the team has invested a huge amount of time in to Dubnyk. You don't throw him away after two bad weeks with a new coach and new system that the whole team is working to figure out.



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609735 is a reply to message #609734 ]
Sun, 13 October 2013 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hmc  is currently offline hmc
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Adam wrote on Mon, 14 October 2013 01:02

Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 17:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


An excellent point. Dubnyk has had some very good games. There's been none in his time with the Oilers where any of them make any difference, because we've never been close. It's the same reason why being 16th best is actually quite strong, because he's playing on a team that's lottery bad every year.

As I said before, the team has invested a huge amount of time in to Dubnyk. You don't throw him away after two bad weeks with a new coach and new system that the whole team is working to figure out.


You don't understand, Adam. Save % is a bunk stat. I mean, literally dividing one number by another is such a stupid way to try and assess a goalie's worth. Way better to just…FEEL IT.



Then I'll just regress, because I feel I've made myself perfectly redundant.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609744 is a reply to message #609735 ]
Mon, 14 October 2013 01:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Magnum is currently online Magnum
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hmc wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 23:06

Adam wrote on Mon, 14 October 2013 01:02

Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 17:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


An excellent point. Dubnyk has had some very good games. There's been none in his time with the Oilers where any of them make any difference, because we've never been close. It's the same reason why being 16th best is actually quite strong, because he's playing on a team that's lottery bad every year.

As I said before, the team has invested a huge amount of time in to Dubnyk. You don't throw him away after two bad weeks with a new coach and new system that the whole team is working to figure out.


You don't understand, Adam. Save % is a bunk stat. I mean, literally dividing one number by another is such a stupid way to try and assess a goalie's worth. Way better to just…FEEL IT.


Shot percentage has a ton of weaknesses. Like the lack of measuring the difference between close vs. perimeter shots, it doesn't show if the goalie is dealing with a break away, it ignores quality of chance/shot. Not a full metric "by any metric".



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609745 is a reply to message #609744 ]
Mon, 14 October 2013 01:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skookum Jim  is currently offline Skookum Jim
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Magnum wrote on Mon, 14 October 2013 00:03

hmc wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 23:06

Adam wrote on Mon, 14 October 2013 01:02

Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 17:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


An excellent point. Dubnyk has had some very good games. There's been none in his time with the Oilers where any of them make any difference, because we've never been close. It's the same reason why being 16th best is actually quite strong, because he's playing on a team that's lottery bad every year.

As I said before, the team has invested a huge amount of time in to Dubnyk. You don't throw him away after two bad weeks with a new coach and new system that the whole team is working to figure out.


You don't understand, Adam. Save % is a bunk stat. I mean, literally dividing one number by another is such a stupid way to try and assess a goalie's worth. Way better to just…FEEL IT.


Shot percentage has a ton of weaknesses. Like the lack of measuring the difference between close vs. perimeter shots, it doesn't show if the goalie is dealing with a break away, it ignores quality of chance/shot. Not a full metric "by any metric".


Exactly.



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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609764 is a reply to message #609744 ]
Mon, 14 October 2013 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hmc  is currently offline hmc
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Magnum wrote on Mon, 14 October 2013 03:03

hmc wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 23:06

Adam wrote on Mon, 14 October 2013 01:02

Magnum wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 17:05

the flying stortini wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 16:55

When has he won a game that mattered? Has he ever succeeded under pressure? When they're mathematically eliminated he plays great, sure. Last year they needed wins after the deadline - no stolen games by DD. They're scoring four or five a game and they can't win - these games count. Yes you can wait for him to turn it around, but when you look at the whole body of work, the high save % doesn't stand up. He won't steal the Oilers a game. He won't make the last second save to win.

That said I sincerely hope I eat crow and he turns it around.


When has he played in a game that's mattered?


An excellent point. Dubnyk has had some very good games. There's been none in his time with the Oilers where any of them make any difference, because we've never been close. It's the same reason why being 16th best is actually quite strong, because he's playing on a team that's lottery bad every year.

As I said before, the team has invested a huge amount of time in to Dubnyk. You don't throw him away after two bad weeks with a new coach and new system that the whole team is working to figure out.


You don't understand, Adam. Save % is a bunk stat. I mean, literally dividing one number by another is such a stupid way to try and assess a goalie's worth. Way better to just…FEEL IT.


Shot percentage has a ton of weaknesses. Like the lack of measuring the difference between close vs. perimeter shots, it doesn't show if the goalie is dealing with a break away, it ignores quality of chance/shot. Not a full metric "by any metric".


Actually, a lot of work has been done on shot quality. It doesn't matter as much as you think.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/6/26/shot-quality-revisited-a-loo k-at-the-correlation-between-scoring-chances-and-shot-totals

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/7/3/shot-quality-matters-but-how- much



Then I'll just regress, because I feel I've made myself perfectly redundant.

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 Re: Review: Edmonton @ Toronto (Game #5) [message #609766 is a reply to message #609710 ]
Mon, 14 October 2013 09:26 Go to previous message
Mars  is currently offline Mars
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Adam wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 15:18

Mars wrote on Sun, 13 October 2013 09:52


My comment on MacT getting the situation resolved includes lighting a fire under the goaltending coach or sending DD to the minors to regain some confidence if he thinks he can get through waivers. Regardless of whether you are a DD fan or not, what's currently being done isn't working and I'm not convinced simply letting DD play through it is the right solution.

I'm a bit confused by some of your posts recently. In one thread you speak about accountability with Lowe and MacT and then in others you are fine with letting DD stink the joint out with no solution other than letting him play through it and hope for the best. While DD had good stats last season on a poor team, I suggest his entire body of work hasn't convinced many that he is starting goaltender material on a contender (arguably of course). In the other thread you suggest the young guys might not be taking things as seriously as they should because of behavior of Management, but yet you ignore the deflating impact of DD giving up garbage goals every game?


Reactionary moves are seldom the right ones. The season's only two weeks in. Dubnyk is 26 years old, so he's unlikely in decline. This is more likely a combination of some struggles, compounded by him putting a lot of extra pressure on himself to succeed, in no small part due to the way the organization has handled him.

I took a soccer course once that dealt a lot with coaching and said the conventional wisdom was the further from your own net a player played, the harder you could be on them. I think it makes sense, because the goalie already has the most pressure on him. For every Taylor Hall giveaway, how many end up in the net? Many don't even get to our zone before the puck is recovered. Not so for a goalie. He makes a mistake and it shows up on the scoreboard.

That doesn't mean there don't have to be consequences, but at the same time, I'm not willing to write off 8 years of organizational development over a two week time span. Sending him to the minors or exposing him to waivers is not the solution. Giving him a couple games off might be. Either that or throw the organization's support behind him, and give him the next game anyhow. Say that you think he's the team's starting netminder and that he just needs to get past his last couple of starts and focus on the future.

As for the poster suggesting that 16th best wasn't that great, please remember that he played for the team finishing 24th in the league last year and his numbers were comparable to most of the people most are clamouring to replace him. Except for Bryzgalov...he was much better than Bryz.


My only rebuttal is that I would not see this as a reactionary move by MacT. We all know he was looking to upgrade the goaltending over the summer and nothing that has occurred thus far this season would have changed his opinion. In fact, MacT's resolve should be concreted with what he has seen and he should still be working on upgrading the goaltending, just as he was during the summer. That would not be reactionary.

To be clear, I'm not advocating that DD is a bad goalie, but I am certainly stating he has been bad this season and that his entire body of work is not convincing enough to unequivocally state he is the future. Some will suggest his body of work should state that, others will suggest not. My only concern is to get quality goaltending before it is too late, whether it is from Dubnyk, Labarbera or someone else.



There is no absolute that this team will win with another coach, but I'd suggest that it is an absolute that this team will continue to be unsuccessful with the players' current level of attention, effort and turnovers.

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