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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813214 is a reply to message #813212 ]	Fri, 28 October 2022 15:02

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3686
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 28 October 2022 14:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 28 October 2022 14:35

Skookum Jim wrote on Fri, 28 October 2022 14:13

RDOilerfan wrote on Fri, 28 October 2022 12:06

Bear + a player + 400K retained to the Canucks for a 5th rounder. I would be curious to know why they didn't just waive him first to see if someone would take him for the full salary. If it costs you an extra player AND you have to retain money just to get a 5th. That's next to nothing.

Pretty sure no one was going to pick him up on waivers for 2.2M.. probably been shopping him for a while.. Carolina had to add 400K + an AHL'er .. to get 1.8M in cap and a high 5th.. Carolina has more cap to add at forward.. Vancouver gets someone to plug some holes on D.

No one probably would have picked him up on waivers but why wouldn't you have tried first? What would have been the harm in throwing a guy you don't want on waivers to see if you get a taker?

Canucks needed the salary retention to be able to take him. His cap hit was ~300k more than they could add.

5th is not that much. Cap space is at a huge premium now. Canes had to try to move him to a team that needed a RD.

Wonder if Bear is still struggling with the fitness stuff. Guess we'll see how he does in Vancouver. With Burns added in Carolina and Brind'Amour probably with zero tolerance for guys that aren't peak conditioned, his opportunity there went to zero.

I get why the Canucks needed the retention, I just would have thought that if as a team you basically had to pay the Canucks to give you anything by adding in another player AND retaining, you'd think you would waived him just to see. If you are having to give up another player and retain money just to move Bear and all you get back is a 5th, it's clear you aren't too worried about the return.

Good question about the fitness which seems to have been an issue a few times before assuming all the reports are true. Usually it's an automatic to play against your old team and he didn't even get a sniff against the Oilers. I saw that against the Canucks, the Canes played Coughlan and CHatfield, 2 righties, in their 3rd pair so I don't think you can blame the handedness on why he didn't play.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813228 is a reply to message #812389 ]	Sat, 29 October 2022 17:29

NetBOG
Messages: 2841
Registered: January 2006
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Leafs unrecognizable in Black and Dark Blue jerseys. At what point does the league recognize the stupidity of some of these uniforms and just give us what we can recognize?

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813240 is a reply to message #813228 ]	Sat, 29 October 2022 21:20

K.McC#24
Messages: 2825
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

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NetBOG wrote on Sat, 29 October 2022 17:29

Leafs unrecognizable in Black and Dark Blue jerseys. At what point does the league recognize the stupidity of some of these uniforms and just give us what we can recognize?

The sad part is there's way worse in the league.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813277 is a reply to message #813228 ]	Mon, 31 October 2022 09:46

Adam
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Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Sat, 29 October 2022 17:29

Leafs unrecognizable in Black and Dark Blue jerseys. At what point does the league recognize the stupidity of some of these uniforms and just give us what we can recognize?

I'm still upset that the navy and neon orange jerseys are back this year. I had hoped we'd seen the last of them.

The black Maple Leafs jersey seems to me to be along the same vein.

Yuck.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813290 is a reply to message #813277 ]	Mon, 31 October 2022 20:13

inverno76
Messages: 2104
Registered: September 2005
Location: Prince Albert, Saskatchew...

2 Cups

Leafs fan base on Twitter is so awesome to follow right now.

Bloggers and podcasts are fueling fires too. It’s beautiful!

https://twitter.com/darkknight7272/status/158693696282021888 2?s=46&t=bT6zTur6TNr62AOnm84JFw

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813291 is a reply to message #813290 ]	Mon, 31 October 2022 21:58

CrusaderPi
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Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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I would never cheat on Connor and the Oilers, but if I did it would be with Tage Thompson and the Sabres.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813382 is a reply to message #813277 ]	Wed, 02 November 2022 23:31

nullterm
Messages: 926
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

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Adam wrote on Mon, 31 October 2022 08:46

NetBOG wrote on Sat, 29 October 2022 17:29

Leafs unrecognizable in Black and Dark Blue jerseys. At what point does the league recognize the stupidity of some of these uniforms and just give us what we can recognize?

I'm still upset that the navy and neon orange jerseys are back this year. I had hoped we'd seen the last of them.

The black Maple Leafs jersey seems to me to be along the same vein.

Yuck.

Dallas looks like extras from a Tron movie.

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_720,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape/cover/sport/Detroit-Red-Wings-v-Dallas-Stars-307fb6fc21bf5e75702014cdfd7719ff.jpg

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813393 is a reply to message #813382 ]	Thu, 03 November 2022 10:28

Dragon_Matt
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Very similar to the newer generation Oil Kings jerseys.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813339 is a reply to message #812389 ]	Tue, 01 November 2022 21:44

NetBOG
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Flames cough up late lead and lose to Krak heads.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813344 is a reply to message #813339 ]	Tue, 01 November 2022 21:56

Kr55
Messages: 9536
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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NetBOG wrote on Tue, 01 November 2022 21:44

Flames cough up late lead and lose to Krak heads.

Huberdeau still stuck mid-crap. 0 points since his 1st period dump attempt saturday.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813379 is a reply to message #813344 ]	Wed, 02 November 2022 17:52

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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Two nights this week without a late game on the schedule. Why does the NHL not want me watching hockey???

The Sabres reverse retro ms look… interesting in action.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813380 is a reply to message #813379 ]	Wed, 02 November 2022 17:57

Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 02 November 2022 17:52

Two nights this week without a late game on the schedule. Why does the NHL not want me watching hockey???

The Sabres reverse retro ms look… interesting in action.

Didn't they decide to do the same thing the Oilers did with their botched roll-out of the first reverse retros by going white pants and gloves?

Word is that the team hated that look so much that they asked not to wear it any more than the absolute minimum number of times (twice, I believe). It's a shame because the jersey wasn't bad - much better than the navy and neon that they still wear - but the accoutrements were dreadful.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813381 is a reply to message #813380 ]	Wed, 02 November 2022 18:59

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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Adam wrote on Wed, 02 November 2022 17:57

CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 02 November 2022 17:52

Two nights this week without a late game on the schedule. Why does the NHL not want me watching hockey???

The Sabres reverse retro ms look… interesting in action.

Didn't they decide to do the same thing the Oilers did with their botched roll-out of the first reverse retros by going white pants and gloves?

Word is that the team hated that look so much that they asked not to wear it any more than the absolute minimum number of times (twice, I believe). It's a shame because the jersey wasn't bad - much better than the navy and neon that they still wear - but the accoutrements were dreadful.

I forgot about that. For an organization that cares so much about their imagine, branding, and value they sure do get a lot of big things wrong. Looking at you, pajama jersey.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813396 is a reply to message #813381 ]	Thu, 03 November 2022 11:59

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3686
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

Oilers are ruining teams!

Beat the Pens to start off a 6 game losing streak.
Beat the Hawks to start off a 3 game losing streak.
Beat the Lames and they have lost 2 in a row.

Blues have lost 5 in a row but they last to the Jets to start the losing streak so I can't give all the credit to the Oilers. The Oilers just took what was left of their heart. icon_lol

icon_lol

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813413 is a reply to message #812389 ]	Thu, 03 November 2022 20:50

NetBOG
Messages: 2841
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

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Calgary hasn't faced a team's normal starting goalie since Eric Comrie on Nov 20. And we just took out the NJ starter so that run will be extended Saturday.

BTW, they are losing 3-0 right now.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813453 is a reply to message #813413 ]	Fri, 04 November 2022 14:25

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3686
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Thu, 03 November 2022 20:50

Calgary hasn't faced a team's normal starting goalie since Eric Comrie on Nov 20. And we just took out the NJ starter so that run will be extended Saturday.

BTW, they are losing 3-0 right now.

I've noticed that. Their first game was against the Avs who the night before played AND had their banner raising ceremony and got their rings. So they got to Calgary really late and what are the odds those guy weren't partying after that game. I sure would have been partying after getting my cup banner raised and getting my cup ring.

Then they got Pittsburgh the night later after they played they Oilers and got their back up.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813452 is a reply to message #812389 ]	Fri, 04 November 2022 14:17

Kr55
Messages: 9536
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Rupp breaking down wet noodle Matthews

https://twitter.com/Rupper17/status/1588015490617806848?s=20 &t=4Afl9mABKPnppPXXodYR2Q

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813467 is a reply to message #813452 ]	Sat, 05 November 2022 14:50

K.McC#24
Messages: 2825
Registered: March 2004
Location: ALBERTA

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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 04 November 2022 14:17

Rupp breaking down wet noodle Matthews

https://twitter.com/Rupper17/status/1588015490617806848?s=20 &t=4Afl9mABKPnppPXXodYR2Q

I knew he was soft, but not this soft.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813501 is a reply to message #813467 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 09:23

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

I just saw the Matthew Tkachuk low sticking incident from the Panthers - Kings game. That is some of the dirtiest garbage I've seen. I have no trouble with people getting hurt in the normal course of a game. Hockey moves fast and things happen (the Pietrangelo hit for example, suspension worthy but part of hockey) there is no reason to hit a guy in the mask when he's covering a puck. It's not being a pest. It's stupid. Bad luck for Quick. Tkachuk got off light.

https://www.nhl.com/video/tkachuk-suspended-two-games/t-2774 40360/c-13608800

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813504 is a reply to message #813501 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 11:45

Mike
Messages: 1059
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

The Bruins rescind their contract offer to Mitchell Miller. How do you all feel about this?

https://www.wcvb.com/article/boston-bruins-part-ways-mitchel l-miller-who-previously-admitted-to-bullying-racial-abuse/41 880300#

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813505 is a reply to message #813504 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 709
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

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He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813507 is a reply to message #813505 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 12:08

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813511 is a reply to message #813507 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 12:34

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 709
Registered: January 2009
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They shouldn't be in charge of justice, however their name and brand is tied to the people they sign on.
I don't think he should be tarred and feathered, but losing his opportunity to become a millionaire who plays hockey for a living? That's the cost for not being a good person.
It wasn't a fight. It wasn't a prank between friends. It's not out of context. He was a bully in the extreme sense of the word who assaulted a disabled student. If you ran a (very public) company, would you want him on your staff?

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813513 is a reply to message #813511 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 12:45

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 12:34

They shouldn't be in charge of justice, however their name and brand is tied to the people they sign on.
I don't think he should be tarred and feathered, but losing his opportunity to become a millionaire who plays hockey for a living? That's the cost for not being a good person.
It wasn't a fight. It wasn't a prank between friends. It's not out of context. He was a bully in the extreme sense of the word who assaulted a disabled student. If you ran a (very public) company, would you want him on your staff?

Depends if he was good at the job. I would have no trouble working with, or employing someone, who had done some bad things if they were showing that they wanted to be better. Hell, I work with some people who have done some bad things. I get nothing out of handing them an employment death penalty. So of these guys even did bad stuff as adults and I don't mind those reprobates getting a shot at redemption.

It's always funny when the people who have the softest stance on taking care of others are so comfortable issuing scarlet letters. I mean, it's not funny for the 14 year old leper who no one should be allowed to view in public, but it's a funny conflict of views for me. Of course no one has trouble with purity testing when they're the ones doing the test. Hopefully it never turns around on you.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813515 is a reply to message #813513 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 13:04

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 709
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I hardly think barring him from playing a game and making millions of dollars is quite the same as a scarlett letter.
He does get a shot at redemption. Just doesn't get to have a cushy life playing a game for a living.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813516 is a reply to message #813515 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 13:20

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 13:04

I hardly think barring him from playing a game and making millions of dollars is quite the same as a scarlett letter.
He does get a shot at redemption. Just doesn't get to have a cushy life playing a game for a living.

I find that line to be wildly arbitrary. What if he could have an entry level contract (no bonuses) but wasn't allowed to be a UFA? Are you going to be outraged if he gets a job selling cars and manages to make 150k? What penance must be performed for him to be allowed back into the parts of our society controlled by your public opinion?

Hopefully it gets a $17 / hr job as a janitor and lives miserably for the rest of his life. That'll show all the other 14 year olds out there.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813521 is a reply to message #813516 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 14:10

Dragon_Matt
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Location: edmonton

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It must be hard going through life with so little activity upstairs.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813524 is a reply to message #813521 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 14:23

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:10

It must be hard going through life with so little activity upstairs.

You don't see the danger of your stance, do you? I encourage you to think about events from the past that were driven by public opinion that you may not have approved of. Maybe, just maybe things will not always be as they are now? Maybe? Or maybe it's easier just to call people stupid because a 14 year isn't sorry enough and deserves punishment without end.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813526 is a reply to message #813524 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 14:26

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 709
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Who said anything about punishment without end? I said, 'not allowed to be a millionaire playing a game for a living' that's hardly locking him up and throwing away the key.
But given your stance on basically anything else, I can see how you'd want to argue... again.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813527 is a reply to message #813526 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 14:56

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:26

Who said anything about punishment without end? I said, 'not allowed to be a millionaire playing a game for a living' that's hardly locking him up and throwing away the key.
But given your stance on basically anything else, I can see how you'd want to argue... again.

How is that not a punishment without end. You're flat out denying him the possibility of doing a job because it's too good for the likes of him. Not only do you are you unwilling to allow a path forward for the Miller, you're tap dancing because you get to punish him. What you are advocating for does nothing to help anyone or anything going forward aside from you misplaced need for vengeance. You're damn right I argue against stuff like this. I find selective vigilantism to be unconscionable.

Unless I'm allowed to be a vigilante for causes that I care about. Then I'll sacrifice Miller in a heartbeat.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813514 is a reply to message #813507 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 12:47

Mike
Messages: 1059
Registered: August 2005
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick

1 Cup

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:08

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Myself, I'm very solidly right on the fence on this one. On the one hand, those acts are reprehensible and they need to be condemned. From what I read, it was all pretty nasty.

On the other hand - he was 14. Are we handing out life sentences now for crap people did as kids?

I believe he's likely still a douchebag - I can't imagine someone doing that at 14 and apparently showing no remorse at all and being completely "rehabilitated" 6 years later. But I think he should be given a chance to prove everyone wrong...for something he did when he was 14.

Isn't that part of the idea behind the young offender's act? That kids do dumb/mean stuff, but they get a chance to try again as grown ups?

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813517 is a reply to message #813514 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 13:24

Adam
Messages: 6806
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Mike wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 12:47

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:08

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Myself, I'm very solidly right on the fence on this one. On the one hand, those acts are reprehensible and they need to be condemned. From what I read, it was all pretty nasty.

On the other hand - he was 14. Are we handing out life sentences now for crap people did as kids?

I believe he's likely still a douchebag - I can't imagine someone doing that at 14 and apparently showing no remorse at all and being completely "rehabilitated" 6 years later. But I think he should be given a chance to prove everyone wrong...for something he did when he was 14.

Isn't that part of the idea behind the young offender's act? That kids do dumb/mean stuff, but they get a chance to try again as grown ups?

One of the issues with the kid is that he has shown zero remorse - so little that the judge actually even called it out in his sentencing - and then has done nothing to make amends in the years since.

Apparently when he was deep in discussions with the Bruins, he decided it was time to play nice, so he made an Instagram post expressing his contrition.

I think there's definitely steps that someone could take to make amends and show that they've changed - give a significant amount of time to charities helping disabled kids for example? - but this guy seems to only really reflect back at the points where he's got a chance to move his hockey career forward.

The amazing thing really is how poorly the Bruins management team comes off looking here. They talked about doing their homework on this - even gave talking points to Elliotte Friedman (who also doesn't look great) - but they didn't speak to the league, any of the leaders on their tight-knit, 10-1 team, or even to their head coach.

I think their calculus was the same as the Coyotes when they drafted him. Simply throw out a few platitudes about second chances, and say that they believe he's a changed person without any requirement for him to actually show that that's so. And in doing that, you get a good hockey player at a big discount.

In both cases, I think it's a double failure, because in doing this you have to know before you do it that you're going to get roasted and people aren't going to be happy with your decision. Either do it and live with the abuse, or don't do it at all, but this business of giving the contract and then rescinding it (or drafting the kid and then throwing him back) just gives you the worst of both worlds. You look insensitive and enabling of bad behaviour, but you also have nothing to show for it. I think it's crazy that Neely and Sweeney didn't figure out what was going to happen ahead of time, or really do any of their homework on this (despite claiming to Friedman that they had).

Collateral damage? Friedman who is increasingly showing that he doesn't want to wade in to any controversial topics, avoiding much discussion of Chicago last year, the World Juniors scandals and then now reading out the Bruins talking points for this before they flip flop making him look foolish.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813518 is a reply to message #813517 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 13:37

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Well if the guy isn't sorry enough for public opinion to swing then yeah janitorial school it is. It's only rational.

Let me be very clear here: I am VERY sorry for everything I've done up to this point in my life. Honestly, I can barely sleep and can't stop eating. I wish I could turn back the clock and make the changes but I can't and it's tearing my insides up. I just don't know what to do and how to fix. I mean, I just gave up a Saturday afternoon (during an Oilers game) to take some non-mandated mental health training. I do know it's not enough, but I don't know where else I can go.

I'd point out offender status is protected grounds in many jurisdictions, including Boston, but I know that's pointless. Public opinion outranks pointless things like "human rights".

[Updated on: Mon, 07 November 2022 13:41]

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813522 is a reply to message #813514 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 14:17

Kr55
Messages: 9536
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Mike wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 12:47

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:08

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Myself, I'm very solidly right on the fence on this one. On the one hand, those acts are reprehensible and they need to be condemned. From what I read, it was all pretty nasty.

On the other hand - he was 14. Are we handing out life sentences now for crap people did as kids?

I believe he's likely still a douchebag - I can't imagine someone doing that at 14 and apparently showing no remorse at all and being completely "rehabilitated" 6 years later. But I think he should be given a chance to prove everyone wrong...for something he did when he was 14.

Isn't that part of the idea behind the young offender's act? That kids do dumb/mean stuff, but they get a chance to try again as grown ups?

If you aspire to make it big in an industry with revenues almost completely driven by fans liking you and the entertainment you need to provide, then maybe don't be a POS for the majority of your life, at least in ways that it's super easy for everyone to find out about.

Though crap, kid needs to get a normal job somehow now. Maybe he can get rich in finance and start his own league that doesn't care about PR at all and see what kind of revenues he could generate. Until then, his usefulness to hockey now is mainly as a lesson for other kids currently going through school that want to make the NHL one day.

[Updated on: Mon, 07 November 2022 14:20]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813523 is a reply to message #813522 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 14:22

Kr55
Messages: 9536
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:17

Mike wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 12:47

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:08

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Myself, I'm very solidly right on the fence on this one. On the one hand, those acts are reprehensible and they need to be condemned. From what I read, it was all pretty nasty.

On the other hand - he was 14. Are we handing out life sentences now for crap people did as kids?

I believe he's likely still a douchebag - I can't imagine someone doing that at 14 and apparently showing no remorse at all and being completely "rehabilitated" 6 years later. But I think he should be given a chance to prove everyone wrong...for something he did when he was 14.

Isn't that part of the idea behind the young offender's act? That kids do dumb/mean stuff, but they get a chance to try again as grown ups?

If you aspire to make it big in an industry with revenues almost completely driven by fans liking you and the entertainment you need to provide, then maybe don't be a POS for the majority of your life, at least in ways that it's super easy for everyone to find out about.

Though crap, kid needs to get a normal job somehow now. Maybe he can get rich in finance and start his own league that doesn't care about PR at all and see what kind of revenues he could generate. Until then, his usefulness to hockey now is mainly as a lesson for other kids currently going through school that want to make the NHL one day.

All that said, if he was extremely talented and was projecting to be an elite contributor to the Bruins, the PR mess vs benefit to fan perception from more winning calculation would flip and he would be playing ASAP :)

SO guess the complete lesson is, if you want to be a POS most of your life, you better be DAMN good.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813525 is a reply to message #813523 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 14:25

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:22

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:17

Mike wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 12:47

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:08

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Myself, I'm very solidly right on the fence on this one. On the one hand, those acts are reprehensible and they need to be condemned. From what I read, it was all pretty nasty.

On the other hand - he was 14. Are we handing out life sentences now for crap people did as kids?

I believe he's likely still a douchebag - I can't imagine someone doing that at 14 and apparently showing no remorse at all and being completely "rehabilitated" 6 years later. But I think he should be given a chance to prove everyone wrong...for something he did when he was 14.

Isn't that part of the idea behind the young offender's act? That kids do dumb/mean stuff, but they get a chance to try again as grown ups?

If you aspire to make it big in an industry with revenues almost completely driven by fans liking you and the entertainment you need to provide, then maybe don't be a POS for the majority of your life, at least in ways that it's super easy for everyone to find out about.

Though crap, kid needs to get a normal job somehow now. Maybe he can get rich in finance and start his own league that doesn't care about PR at all and see what kind of revenues he could generate. Until then, his usefulness to hockey now is mainly as a lesson for other kids currently going through school that want to make the NHL one day.

All that said, if he was extremely talented and was projecting to be an elite contributor to the Bruins, the PR mess vs benefit to fan perception from more winning calculation would flip and he would be playing ASAP :)

SO guess the complete lesson is, if you want to be a POS most of your life, you never be DAMN good.

This is the lesson. Get to the point where you're good enough that all your past doesn't matter or you'll be sorry. One way or the other. Unless you're perfect. Then the purity test will never apply to you and you don't need to worry about anything.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813528 is a reply to message #813525 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 15:03

Adam
Messages: 6806
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:25

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:22

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:17

Mike wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 12:47

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:08

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Myself, I'm very solidly right on the fence on this one. On the one hand, those acts are reprehensible and they need to be condemned. From what I read, it was all pretty nasty.

On the other hand - he was 14. Are we handing out life sentences now for crap people did as kids?

I believe he's likely still a douchebag - I can't imagine someone doing that at 14 and apparently showing no remorse at all and being completely "rehabilitated" 6 years later. But I think he should be given a chance to prove everyone wrong...for something he did when he was 14.

Isn't that part of the idea behind the young offender's act? That kids do dumb/mean stuff, but they get a chance to try again as grown ups?

If you aspire to make it big in an industry with revenues almost completely driven by fans liking you and the entertainment you need to provide, then maybe don't be a POS for the majority of your life, at least in ways that it's super easy for everyone to find out about.

Though crap, kid needs to get a normal job somehow now. Maybe he can get rich in finance and start his own league that doesn't care about PR at all and see what kind of revenues he could generate. Until then, his usefulness to hockey now is mainly as a lesson for other kids currently going through school that want to make the NHL one day.

All that said, if he was extremely talented and was projecting to be an elite contributor to the Bruins, the PR mess vs benefit to fan perception from more winning calculation would flip and he would be playing ASAP :)

SO guess the complete lesson is, if you want to be a POS most of your life, you never be DAMN good.

This is the lesson. Get to the point where you're good enough that all your past doesn't matter or you'll be sorry. One way or the other. Unless you're perfect. Then the purity test will never apply to you and you don't need to worry about anything.

I think Kr hits it right here. You want to make your living in a career that's entirely driven by public perception, then making really bad decisions that impact your likeability to that public is a bad idea.

It's not like this is without precedent. MacTavish couldn't play in Boston after his accident, because he was a hated figure there for his actions. Voynov has never been able to get reinstated to play after beating up his girlfriend. In both those cases, the player served their jailtime and theoretically had paid their debt to society, but they weren't accepted back - one with his team, the other with the entire league.

Upon this signing, the Bruins got multiple letters and emails from fans expressing their disgust and their willingness to speak with their pocketbooks. More than any of the scorn, more than the pressure from the players around this not fitting the culture, more than even the league's response (driven by the same factors), this is why he isn't getting to play for the Bruins.

As for second chances, well, they need to be earned. You don't just get them because you exist and you burned up chance number one. Part of freedom is that an employer doesn't have to give you a job, or that people don't have to like you or treat you pleasantly just because you were 14 when you did something really bad. Actions have consequences, and sometimes those go beyond just a juvenile record.

For what it's worth, I think that there are things this kid could have done to rehabilitate himself and make a case for the second chance. I've seen no evidence that he's done anything other than an apology just before he signed - and the least personal apology possible, done only on a public forum where it could be used for PR, as opposed to showing any true contrition. That's not remorse - that's opportunism. He's made his bed. Oh well.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813529 is a reply to message #813528 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 15:23

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Adam wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:03

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:25

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:22

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:17

Mike wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 12:47

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:08

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 11:51

He wasn't just a bully. What he did was bad enough to have been convicted of assault as a 14-year-old. He beat and kicked a disabled student and made him suck on a candy that was in the urinal.

The consequences of not being a good person need to be felt. Professional athletes make millions. Enough bad people have gotten through in the past, it's nice to see a bad person be told 'no' at the gate. He can learn from his mistakes, and he can grow as a person. But he doesn't get to be a professional millionaire athlete (at least not in the NHL. Maybe the KHL). I think that's fair.

Not shockingly, I'm opposed to vigilante justice. I don't think we're better as a society if we are all ok with firing people for wrongthink and stupid things a 14 year old did. But if we're happy that two people have been destroyed, we're happy. An eye for and eye and all that. Now if a reasonable path forward was presented I'd have a different view. But right now there is no path forward and I think that's unreasonable.

The NHL and businesses in general should not be in charge of delivering justice. There is a word the aptly describes the merging of government and (big) business and it's a word we don't usually like.

Myself, I'm very solidly right on the fence on this one. On the one hand, those acts are reprehensible and they need to be condemned. From what I read, it was all pretty nasty.

On the other hand - he was 14. Are we handing out life sentences now for crap people did as kids?

I believe he's likely still a douchebag - I can't imagine someone doing that at 14 and apparently showing no remorse at all and being completely "rehabilitated" 6 years later. But I think he should be given a chance to prove everyone wrong...for something he did when he was 14.

Isn't that part of the idea behind the young offender's act? That kids do dumb/mean stuff, but they get a chance to try again as grown ups?

If you aspire to make it big in an industry with revenues almost completely driven by fans liking you and the entertainment you need to provide, then maybe don't be a POS for the majority of your life, at least in ways that it's super easy for everyone to find out about.

Though crap, kid needs to get a normal job somehow now. Maybe he can get rich in finance and start his own league that doesn't care about PR at all and see what kind of revenues he could generate. Until then, his usefulness to hockey now is mainly as a lesson for other kids currently going through school that want to make the NHL one day.

All that said, if he was extremely talented and was projecting to be an elite contributor to the Bruins, the PR mess vs benefit to fan perception from more winning calculation would flip and he would be playing ASAP :)

SO guess the complete lesson is, if you want to be a POS most of your life, you never be DAMN good.

This is the lesson. Get to the point where you're good enough that all your past doesn't matter or you'll be sorry. One way or the other. Unless you're perfect. Then the purity test will never apply to you and you don't need to worry about anything.

I think Kr hits it right here. You want to make your living in a career that's entirely driven by public perception, then making really bad decisions that impact your likeability to that public is a bad idea.

It's not like this is without precedent. MacTavish couldn't play in Boston after his accident, because he was a hated figure there for his actions. Voynov has never been able to get reinstated to play after beating up his girlfriend. In both those cases, the player served their jailtime and theoretically had paid their debt to society, but they weren't accepted back - one with his team, the other with the entire league.

Upon this signing, the Bruins got multiple letters and emails from fans expressing their disgust and their willingness to speak with their pocketbooks. More than any of the scorn, more than the pressure from the players around this not fitting the culture, more than even the league's response (driven by the same factors), this is why he isn't getting to play for the Bruins.

As for second chances, well, they need to be earned. You don't just get them because you exist and you burned up chance number one. Part of freedom is that an employer doesn't have to give you a job, or that people don't have to like you or treat you pleasantly just because you were 14 when you did something really bad. Actions have consequences, and sometimes those go beyond just a juvenile record.

For what it's worth, I think that there are things this kid could have done to rehabilitate himself and make a case for the second chance. I've seen no evidence that he's done anything other than an apology just before he signed - and the least personal apology possible, done only on a public forum where it could be used for PR, as opposed to showing any true contrition. That's not remorse - that's opportunism. He's made his bed. Oh well.

But it's not a profession that's entirely driven by public perception. I don't have to look very hard to find current NHL players that have don't worse things as older people. Yes, public perception matters, but it matters much less than winning does. I don't mind Boston saying MacTavish can't be a Bruin because of obvious reasons. It makes sense. I do have a problem with the league, an advertiser, or internet poster saying MacTavish can't play anywhere. Those are very different consequences.

To me it seems like you just have an arbitrary need for a public penance more than anything else. His formal justice received wasn't enough, but if he had said sorry hard enough it would be fine. This is the earning it back you need. A sorry matters more to you than the job. It seems silly to me Adam. Maybe we need to bring back public flogging? If he's not sorry enough, we'll make him sorry enough.

For what it's worth, an employers right to hire or not hire is limited by human right legislation which do include (in some places) conviction status. I do understand no one cares about those useless frivolities when they're on the other side of the argument.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813531 is a reply to message #813529 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 15:47

Dragon_Matt
Messages: 709
Registered: January 2009
Location: edmonton

No Cups

Just give him your gold star already.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813532 is a reply to message #813531 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 15:49

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7632
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Dragon_Matt wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 15:47

Just give him your gold star already.

Who? Miller?

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: 2022-23 Regular Season OOT Thread [message #813533 is a reply to message #813529 ]	Mon, 07 November 2022 16:36

Goose
Messages: 1098
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver

1 Cup

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 07 November 2022 14:23

But it's not a profession that's entirely driven by public perception. I don't have to look very hard to find current NHL players that have don't worse things as older people. Yes, public perception matters, but it matters much less than winning does. I don't mind Boston saying MacTavish can't be a Bruin because of obvious reasons. It makes sense. I do have a problem with the league, an advertiser, or internet poster saying MacTavish can't play anywhere. Those are very different consequences.

To me it seems like you just have an arbitrary need for a public penance more than anything else. His formal justice received wasn't enough, but if he had said sorry hard enough it would be fine. This is the earning it back you need. A sorry matters more to you than the job. It seems silly to me Adam. Maybe we need to bring back public flogging? If he's not sorry enough, we'll make him sorry enough.

For what it's worth, an employers right to hire or not hire is limited by human right legislation which do include (in some places) conviction status. I do understand no one cares about those useless frivolities when they're on the other side of the argument.

We're talking about a league where like half of the team staff have their positions because their dad/brother either played, coached or managed in the league somewhere. Sorry, half probably only applies to the Oilers. But it's a league that is rife with nepotism, sexism and groupthink. People are denied opportunities every day for reasons other than 'merit'.

At the player level, there have been credible accusations by guys like Akim Aliu that they were denied opportunities due to racism. Is it fair that Alex Debrincat didn't get drafted until the 2nd round after back to back 51 goal seasons in the OHL because he's 5'8"?

Seems weird to be all bent out of shape that a kid might have a tougher road to the NHL because he bullied and assaulted another kid.

I agree that, in some cases, winning matters more than public perception. Which is why the Bruins were willing to sign him in the first place. He set goal/points records for a defenceman in the USHL last year. Seems like, in this case, public perception mattered more than winning. As much as you're upset with posters setting arbitrary lines in terms of how much remorse he needs to show, you're setting arbitrary lines in terms of how much weight teams or the league are allowed to place on public perception.

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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