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Oilers » Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797081 is a reply to message #797079 ]	Sun, 09 January 2022 09:04

Kr55
Messages: 9535
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

g2k wrote on Sun, 09 January 2022 07:23

Trust fund Ken. Good read.

https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /this-man-destroyed-my-hockey-team-for-a-decade-ken-holland- ripped-by-espn-sportscasters

(yesterday = 2 and a half years ago)

How do we keep doing this to ourselves? Oh yeah, letting the same group of hockey canada buddies keep hiring eachother.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797091 is a reply to message #797079 ]	Sun, 09 January 2022 14:09

Adam
Messages: 6803
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

g2k wrote on Sun, 09 January 2022 07:23

Trust fund Ken. Good read.

https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey /this-man-destroyed-my-hockey-team-for-a-decade-ken-holland- ripped-by-espn-sportscasters

And like everything that Staples comments on, Staples is of course very wrong.

Certainly, the criticisms we hear in that article have played out here in Edmonton. Long, ridiculous contracts, bad trades, no move clauses, zero sense of cap management.

If only we'd actually done a true search like was promised. Bob Nicholson never has any follow-through on anything though.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797474 is a reply to message #737037 ]	Sat, 15 January 2022 23:52

Kr55
Messages: 9535
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

2 more years at $5M, hahahaha.

How much money has Katz flushed down the toilet paying useless hockey canada idiots?

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797475 is a reply to message #797474 ]	Sun, 16 January 2022 01:04

Slim Jim Phantom Call
Messages: 202
Registered: May 2002
Location: E-Ville

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Kr55 wrote on Sat, 15 January 2022 23:52

2 more years at $5M, hahahaha.

How much money has Katz flushed down the toilet paying useless hockey canada idiots?

Kevin Lowe has done an amazing job at sheltering himself.

In fairness to Hall, I've wanted to throw a waterbottle at Eakins all season.
~nullterm 03/22/2014

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797507 is a reply to message #797475 ]	Sun, 16 January 2022 17:17

nullterm
Messages: 925
Registered: July 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC

No Cups

Looking at this thread in hindsight...

Kenny hasn't done anything to sewer the team like the Lucic contract, but he also hasn't done anything to big improve the team either.

Just a few small improvements which haven't done enough. It's like I postulated the day he was hired, just going into semi retirement, not exactly rolling up his sleeves and picking up a shovel.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797520 is a reply to message #797507 ]	Sun, 16 January 2022 23:36

Adam
Messages: 6803
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

nullterm wrote on Sun, 16 January 2022 17:17

Looking at this thread in hindsight...

Kenny hasn't done anything to sewer the team like the Lucic contract, but he also hasn't done anything to big improve the team either.

Just a few small improvements which haven't done enough. It's like I postulated the day he was hired, just going into semi retirement, not exactly rolling up his sleeves and picking up a shovel.

I think that's generous. Is there much on the team that's better because of Holland? I'll give him Zack Hyman, and I'll give him Tyson Barrie last year, but otherwise his moves have been mostly flubs.

His record on trades isn't long so it's pretty easy to go through:

- Lucic & 3rd for Neal - At the time, I was pretty excited abour this and it looked pretty good in the first year after the deal, but since then that's been squandered. Lucic is a contributor (although not worth his contract) in Calgary. The Oilers are now paying Neal $1.9MM and Lucic another $750K per season NOT to play here. Oh, and the Flames got an extra pick for good measure.
- John Marino for a 6th round pick. Clear loss here - the guy we drafted doesn't look like he has a hope of making the show (7 pts in 27 USHL games this year as a winger), and Marino's become a good contributor for the Penguins. I'll give Holland the benefit of the doubt here because Marino was going to be lost for nothing if not signed or traded...although clearly we should have signed him.
- Kyle Brodziak & a 4th for Mike Green - Basically ended up a free 4th rounder for Detroit after Green quit.
- Sam Gagner & two 2nd round picks for Andreas Athanasiou and a body. The Oilers made a bunch of noise at the trade deadline about how Holland hates rentals, and then they made a fuss over the fact he didn't get just a rental but rather a player we could keep here long-term since he was only an RFA-to-be...and then 13 games later we didn't qualify him and he left for nothing. It scares me a little that Holland is saying the same thing again this year.
- 5th round pick for Tyler Ennis. This is a decent pick-up by Holland. His first win on this list.
- Joel Persson for Angus Redmond. Who cares.
- 2020 3rd round pick (Danill Gushchin) for a 4th (Carter Savoie) and a 5th (Tyler Tullio) in the same draft. We will see on this one.
- Caleb Jones and a 2nd or 3rd round pick for Duncan Keith and a body. "What did you want me to get him for free?" Still one of the stupidest moves I've seen.
- Dylan Wells for nothing. No one cares.
- 2021 1st round pick (Jesper Wallstedt) for 1st round pick (Xavier Bourgault) and 3rd round pick (Luca Munzenberger) - again, wait and see, although man, it would be nice to have a top flight goalie prospect. I think this one will come back to haunt us.
- Ethan Bear for Warren Foegele - I'm on record saying this is a massive error. I know the Edmonton media guys are excited and feel vindicated because Ethan Bear got healthy scratched last night, but Foegele's been a little disappointing here and even if he wasn't - a decent RH defenceman is worth more than a third line winger straight up.

That's it, that's the lot of them. His only win in a trade was the Ennis deal, and Ennis got hurt in his first go-around, and then was out of favour with the coach last year.

Signings aren't a lot better. He's given some horrendous deals out - overpaying guys like Kassian on money and giving term to everyone to the point where you wonder if it's just trying to save himself time in the following summers. That all of Shore, Koekkoek and Mike Smith came out of last summer with two year deals is unbelievable. Barrie and Ceci are here for the long-term.

By the numbers, the depth on the team is worse than it was under Chiarelli - and it was terrible under Chiarelli. The goaltending, unbelievably, hasn't changed in the three years he's been here (he signed Smith soon after arriving). The defence is older and MUCH more expensive, but I haven't seen a lot to suggest they're better. The only are that's really seem improvement is McDavid and Draisaitl, and that's just development curve of superstars - not anything Holland's done.

I think Holland is less bad than Chiarelli, simply because he hasn't made the same magnitude of mistake yet (although the Wallstedt thing has potential). But that ain't high praise and we really needed to see the team grow in these years so we can get to a championship with McDavid and Draisaitl...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797522 is a reply to message #737037 ]	Mon, 17 January 2022 01:04

Kr55
Messages: 9535
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Couple highlights from this thread looking back.

mightreasoner predicted the possibility that Holland's 5x5M deal could put us in a hard place if he's not doing well by year 3 because Katz is getting cheap and we would be on the hook for 10M still if we fire him. Well done.

And Holland did indeed have full autonomy which some were concerned he didn't. He was true to form, overvaluing over the hill vets and continuing to be absolutely terrible at negotiating trades. No one stood in his way. Yay!

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797529 is a reply to message #797522 ]	Mon, 17 January 2022 08:21

Adam
Messages: 6803
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 17 January 2022 01:04

Couple highlights from this thread looking back.

mightreasoner predicted the possibility that Holland's 5x5M deal could put us in a hard place if he's not doing well by year 3 because Katz is getting cheap and we would be on the hook for 10M still if we fire him. Well done.

And Holland did indeed have full autonomy which some were concerned he didn't. He was true to form, overvaluing over the hill vets and continuing to be absolutely terrible at negotiating trades. No one stood in his way. Yay!

I still think it's funny that the Oilers actually write that he has full autonomy in his position in his bio.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797533 is a reply to message #797522 ]	Mon, 17 January 2022 09:09

CrudeRemarks
Messages: 1698
Registered: November 2010
Location: Edmonton

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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 17 January 2022 01:04

Couple highlights from this thread looking back.

mightreasoner predicted the possibility that Holland's 5x5M deal could put us in a hard place if he's not doing well by year 3 because Katz is getting cheap and we would be on the hook for 10M still if we fire him. Well done.

And Holland did indeed have full autonomy which some were concerned he didn't. He was true to form, overvaluing over the hill vets and continuing to be absolutely terrible at negotiating trades. No one stood in his way. Yay!

So I think we'd all agree there's no chance Holland gets an extension past year 5. So what does he do over the next two offseasons? seems to me he'd want a championship so there'll be big swings, and he won't really care about the draft cupboard past the end of his tenure. Too bad he sucks at trades, because that could end up as a bad combination.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #797534 is a reply to message #797533 ]	Mon, 17 January 2022 09:15

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7631
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

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CrudeRemarks wrote on Mon, 17 January 2022 09:09

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 17 January 2022 01:04

Couple highlights from this thread looking back.

mightreasoner predicted the possibility that Holland's 5x5M deal could put us in a hard place if he's not doing well by year 3 because Katz is getting cheap and we would be on the hook for 10M still if we fire him. Well done.

And Holland did indeed have full autonomy which some were concerned he didn't. He was true to form, overvaluing over the hill vets and continuing to be absolutely terrible at negotiating trades. No one stood in his way. Yay!

So I think we'd all agree there's no chance Holland gets an extension past year 5. So what does he do over the next two offseasons? seems to me he'd want a championship so there'll be big swings, and he won't really care about the draft cupboard past the end of his tenure. Too bad he sucks at trades, because that could end up as a bad combination.

To me it looks like Holland has entered the sage contemplative part of his career. He sees the bigger picture and preaches calm now. As a successful GM with good connections he knows the worst case scenario is he'll win a cup eventually as a senior VP and everyone will know he did the building.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831005 is a reply to message #737037 ]	Sun, 17 March 2024 00:10

Kr55
Messages: 9535
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Just taking a moment to appreciate the end result of 5 years of Ken Holland.

We are so hard against the cap that we are willingly giving easy to achieve bonuses to have a ~3M cap penalty the year after he leaves. Couldn't even start the season with a full roster. And his end lineup to go for the cup in year 5 had, with all D healthy, Vinny Desharnais in the #2 RHD spot.

I'd say $25,000,000 well spent.

https://www.globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/orson-welles-slow-clap.gif

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831007 is a reply to message #831005 ]	Sun, 17 March 2024 00:29

Jay
Messages: 223
Registered: January 2007
Location: Edmonton

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Kr55 wrote on Sun, 17 March 2024 00:10

Just taking a moment to appreciate the end result of 5 years of Ken Holland.

We are so hard against the cap that we are willingly giving easy to achieve bonuses to have a ~3M cap penalty the year after he leaves. Couldn't even start the season with a full roster. And his end lineup to go for the cup in year 5 had, with all D healthy, Vinny Desharnais in the #2 RHD spot.

I'd say $25,000,000 well spent.

https://www.globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/orson-welles-slow-clap.gif

The last two GMs have been Holland and chiarelli lol

"Initiative comes to thems that wait"

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831010 is a reply to message #831007 ]	Sun, 17 March 2024 01:04

Kr55
Messages: 9535
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Jay wrote on Sun, 17 March 2024 00:29

The last two GMs have been Holland and chiarelli lol

Hockey Canada BFF club FTW

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831016 is a reply to message #831005 ]	Sun, 17 March 2024 12:23

NetBOG
Messages: 2839
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

2 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 17 March 2024 00:10

Just taking a moment to appreciate the end result of 5 years of Ken Holland.

We are so hard against the cap that we are willingly giving easy to achieve bonuses to have a ~3M cap penalty the year after he leaves. Couldn't even start the season with a full roster. And his end lineup to go for the cup in year 5 had, with all D healthy, Vinny Desharnais in the #2 RHD spot.

I'd say $25,000,000 well spent.

While I have my issues with Holland (mostly giving away future assets), This team was 35–38–9 the year before he arrived and had made the playoffs once in 13 years. They've at least made the play-in in every year since and made a conference championship.

The cap issues aren't really Holland's fault. It's combination of bad luck at the worst possible time (global pandemic) and greedy old players stealing money from the young (2020-21 players not taking a pay cut even though they were only owed 50% of negligible revenue). Every team should have $10 million more cap to use at least.

The Campbell contract is a mess (I expressed my skepticism about it when it happened), but that happens Not everything is going to go as planned. The Nurse contract is too high, but by how much? A couple million?

Hyman, Nuge and even Kane signings are very good value. Ekholm was a good trade.

Holland takes a lot of crap, but this team is way better as he leaves than when he got here.

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831017 is a reply to message #831016 ]	Sun, 17 March 2024 12:42

smyth260
Messages: 939
Registered: November 2007

No Cups

Have higher expectations.

When you have Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl, I expect any of these:

- division wins
- top 5 league finishes
- finals

Ken Holland has none of those. Not even a game won in round 3. Leaving it better off than when you arrived is not good enough in these circumstances.

Every time there was room to take big steps forward he took steps back. You mentioned Campbell and Nurse. Well you also have to mention Kassian’s deal, the opportunity cost of allocating 5+ million cap space to 38 year old Duncan Keith, and then a bunch of 2 year deals to tweeners that limited our flexibility (Turris, Koekkoek, Shore, Archibald, Chiasson…who else), his horrible draft record in Edmonton. He has some hits but he has a lot more misses and ultimately that’s why we float around a 10th place team for his whole tenure. Not good enough. Not even top half of the playoff teams in most years.

[Updated on: Sun, 17 March 2024 23:00]

Clean house or bust

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831022 is a reply to message #831017 ]	Sun, 17 March 2024 15:40

Kr55
Messages: 9535
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

smyth260 wrote on Sun, 17 March 2024 12:42

Have higher expectations.

When you have Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl, I expect any of these:

- division wins
- top 5 league finishes
- finals

Ken Holland has none of those. Not even a game won in round 3. Leaving it better off than when you arrived is not good enough in these circumstances.

Every time there was room to take big steps forward he took steps back. You mentioned Campbell and Nurse. Well you also have to mention Kassian’s deal, the opportunity cost of allocating 5+ million cap space to 38 year old Duncan Keith, and then a bunch of 2 year deals to tweeners that limited our flexibility (Turris, Koekkoek, Shore, Archibald, Chiasson…who else). He has some hits but he has a lot more misses and ultimately that’s why we float around a 10th place team for his whole tenure. Not good enough. Not even top half of the playoff teams in most years.

I feel like the satisfaction Holland had with Desharnais in the top 4 is a good final summary of his work here. Just hanging back watching Knob try to figure out which of these 3rd pair D that can barely move a puck will hurt us less against good comp playing top 4. Never came close to properly filling the holes that kept burning our team and even tossed away our most tradable asset for a 3rd line C when he had one last shot to try.

We still have McDrai of course. Miracles can happen. But we continue to fumble the hand we were dealt around decade ago.

Zero Holland draft picks in our lineup is also remarkable for a guy who has his entire claim to fame rooted in godly drafting.

[Updated on: Sun, 17 March 2024 15:51]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831025 is a reply to message #831022 ]	Mon, 18 March 2024 10:39

Adam
Messages: 6803
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Sun, 17 March 2024 15:40

smyth260 wrote on Sun, 17 March 2024 12:42

Have higher expectations.

When you have Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl, I expect any of these:

- division wins
- top 5 league finishes
- finals

Ken Holland has none of those. Not even a game won in round 3. Leaving it better off than when you arrived is not good enough in these circumstances.

Every time there was room to take big steps forward he took steps back. You mentioned Campbell and Nurse. Well you also have to mention Kassian’s deal, the opportunity cost of allocating 5+ million cap space to 38 year old Duncan Keith, and then a bunch of 2 year deals to tweeners that limited our flexibility (Turris, Koekkoek, Shore, Archibald, Chiasson…who else). He has some hits but he has a lot more misses and ultimately that’s why we float around a 10th place team for his whole tenure. Not good enough. Not even top half of the playoff teams in most years.

I feel like the satisfaction Holland had with Desharnais in the top 4 is a good final summary of his work here. Just hanging back watching Knob try to figure out which of these 3rd pair D that can barely move a puck will hurt us less against good comp playing top 4. Never came close to properly filling the holes that kept burning our team and even tossed away our most tradable asset for a 3rd line C when he had one last shot to try.

We still have McDrai of course. Miracles can happen. But we continue to fumble the hand we were dealt around decade ago.

Zero Holland draft picks in our lineup is also remarkable for a guy who has his entire claim to fame rooted in godly drafting.

I think that the one thing Holland and the Oilers brass did well in the last 4 years is to set expectations really low. "We can't compete because there's cap issues. We aren't ready to win yet. You can't win trades in this league. What, did you want me to get him for nothing? We're pretty cap constrained right now."

They lined up the excuses and sold it to Oilers fans that they shouldn't expect championships during the absolute prime of McDavid and Draisaitl's careers. When he joined, McDavid is 22 and Draisaitl is 23, and they're both under contract forever. When he leaves, McDavid is 27 and Draisaitl 28, with only a single year left for Draisaitl before UFA and McDavid with only one more year on top of that and we have just nothing to show for it.

You can see the team happy to see the Mark Spector narrative that its because those players chased scoring titles instead of championships, but that's pure BS. Those players have never been the issue - the lack of depth, defence and goaltending has consistently held us back. McDavid has a ridiculous 66 points in 36 playoff games in that 5-year stretch. Draisaitl has 61 in the same 36 games. Meanwhile the team's netminding has been miserable. Mike Smith had .908 in 21 starts. Skinner is sitting at .883 in 12 starts. Koskinen wasn't much better at .892 in 3 starts and four relief efforts and Campbell has only come in in relief (4X last year!!!!) and has the best number at .961 although score effects and small sample size need to be considered.

What did the deadline help Holland got do?

Mike Green - 0 gp, 0 pts
Derick Brassard - 1 gp, 0 pts
Andreas Athanasiou - 4 gp, 0 pts
Dmitry Kulikov - 3 GP, 0 pts
Tyler Ennis - 5 gp, 2 pts
Brett Kulak - 28 gp, 7 pts
Mattias Ekholm, 12 gp, 7 pts

Oh and he saved room one year for Slater Koekkoek to return so maybe I should mention his 4 gp and 1 pt too. Ekholm was a great add. Kulak has been a fine, if overpriced, third line guy. Otherwise it's been grim. The GM hasn't helped the team over the edge at any point.

Chicago had Toews & Kane and some monster deals for them and they consistently added to that team through their prime to get them Stanley Cups. Crosby & Malkin had similar support in Pittsburgh - the team is still swinging for the fences to try to get them one more kick at it. The Caps have been suggested as the model with Ovechkin in his 30s before they finally won, but it wasn't for lack of trying - they just shared a division with the Crosby-led Pens and had some bad luck (and spotty netminding). That team still regularly added high-end talent to help them in their quest for that Cup.

The Oilers under Holland have been more content to play around the edges. He's made a couple of really good adds, but in five years, getting the most money of any GM, with the best players on the planet to build around? We should expect more.

Honestly, instead of blaming Chiarelli for a mess when he showed up, he should have set the expectation for a championship in Edmonton in the near future and potentially multiple Cups in his time here. He didn't, and the team performed to the lower expectations set - helped along by him not really helping much.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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Re: Ken Holland accepts Oilers GM and POHO offer [message #831026 is a reply to message #831016 ]	Mon, 18 March 2024 10:49

Adam
Messages: 6803
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Sun, 17 March 2024 12:23

Holland takes a lot of crap, but this team is way better as he leaves than when he got here.

If this was a company - where you could expect reasonably that the level of the company's sales and profits could be maintained, then looking at Holland's tenure this way might make sense. He took on a company that was struggling to break even, he stabilized things (mostly by letting his two star employees carry the load and then taking some level of credit for their accomplishments even though they pre-dated his arrival) and now it's an upper mid-tier competitor in the space. On to the next CEO to continue to push them up!

But it's not the same as a company because players have shelf lives and contracts come to an end. Draisaitl and McDavid are at the tail end of their deals, and should they decide not to stay in Edmonton, what that Holland has built has any level of sustainability? If they go - is there ANY chance of a championship for the Oilers? I'd suggest not.

Given the window of their prime producing years, the team should have at least been competitive for the Stanley Cup and it just wasn't. So if Holland is taking crap, he deserves it. He probably should be removed from the Hall of Fame as a Builder after his time with the Oilers as he's proven that without unlimited pizza money, he's actually trash. Can't trade, can't draft, can't negotiate any team friendly deals. Barely can even give a decent interview. We can't be rid of him soon enough. The guy who you should pity is the next GM who may have to deal with the exits of two superstars and who won't possibly be able to get enough back from their departures to make anyone happy.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
~~#FireLowe~~ #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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