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 Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794117]
Tue, 09 November 2021 02:00 Go to next message
OilFans is currently offline OilFans
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Edmonton to win: 0%
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2021-22 Regular Season
Tuesday, November 9, 2021Edmonton 2 @ Detroit 4Loss
Tuesday, March 15, 2022Detroit 5 @ Edmonton 7Win
Home Record: 1-0-0       Road Record: 0-1-0       Overall Record: 1-1-0
Home / Road Goals For: 7/2 Total: 9
Home / Road Goals Against: 5/4 Total: 9

2020-21 Regular Season
Home Record: 0-0-0       Road Record: 0-0-0       Overall Record: 0-0-0
Home / Road Goals For: 0/0 Total: 0
Home / Road Goals Against: 0/0 Total: 0



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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794119 is a reply to message #794117 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Feels like it has been forever since Friday!

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794120 is a reply to message #794119 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GabbyDugan is currently offline GabbyDugan
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Per Ryan Holt, Skinner starts in Detroit tonight.

Draisaitl-McDavid-Puljujarvi
Hyman-RNH-Kassian
Foegele-Ryan-Yamamoto
Perlini-McLeod-Sceviour
Benson-Turris

Nurse-Bouchard
Keith-Ceci
Koekkoek-Barrie
Russell

Skinner in starters net
Koskinen
Smith

I'm not going to change my prediction, but this year's Red Wings are doing relatively well.

Go Oilers!!!! rock rock rock rock

[Updated on: Tue, 09 November 2021 09:50]


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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794122 is a reply to message #794120 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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No a big fan of some of what Tippett is doing. We're rolling with two lines, and then he decides we need to return to McDavid & Draisaitl on the same line. Despite that, the 2nd line last game was actually really good - so we move Yamamoto down the lineup?

Kassian hasn't done a lot to earn a promotion to my eyes. He was -2 last game on a struggling third line and he's only managed 7 shots on the entire season so far.

I do think the fourth line looks better with Shore and Turris off it, although I would really like to see Benson & McLeod reunited at some point. It seems like that's too much youth for Tippett though.

All that said, Detroit should be a punching bag, even with their relatively hot start this year. They have surprised a couple of teams this year, including the Penguins and the Golden Knights, so hopefully we aren't taking them lightly (and hopefully Skinner stops more pucks than in his game last year!)

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794128 is a reply to message #794122 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55 is currently offline Kr55
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Adam wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 10:08

No a big fan of some of what Tippett is doing. We're rolling with two lines, and then he decides we need to return to McDavid & Draisaitl on the same line. Despite that, the 2nd line last game was actually really good - so we move Yamamoto down the lineup?

Kassian hasn't done a lot to earn a promotion to my eyes. He was -2 last game on a struggling third line and he's only managed 7 shots on the entire season so far.

I do think the fourth line looks better with Shore and Turris off it, although I would really like to see Benson & McLeod reunited at some point. It seems like that's too much youth for Tippett though.

All that said, Detroit should be a punching bag, even with their relatively hot start this year. They have surprised a couple of teams this year, including the Penguins and the Golden Knights, so hopefully we aren't taking them lightly (and hopefully Skinner stops more pucks than in his game last year!)


Detroit has been surprising teams with bursts of offense. Maybe Tip is just going for a wide open back and forth game and wants to see some McDrai points.

Not a fan either of loading the top line. We know those guys are good together. We don't know if we can sustain a 2 line attack and the lack of one has killed us in the playoffs multiple times. Just wasting time that we could be building more chemistry with balanced lines. And confidence for Tip that 2 lines can work, since he panics and goes back to a 1 line team in the playoffs if it doesn't work immediately.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794129 is a reply to message #794128 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 13:41

Adam wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 10:08

No a big fan of some of what Tippett is doing. We're rolling with two lines, and then he decides we need to return to McDavid & Draisaitl on the same line. Despite that, the 2nd line last game was actually really good - so we move Yamamoto down the lineup?

Kassian hasn't done a lot to earn a promotion to my eyes. He was -2 last game on a struggling third line and he's only managed 7 shots on the entire season so far.

I do think the fourth line looks better with Shore and Turris off it, although I would really like to see Benson & McLeod reunited at some point. It seems like that's too much youth for Tippett though.

All that said, Detroit should be a punching bag, even with their relatively hot start this year. They have surprised a couple of teams this year, including the Penguins and the Golden Knights, so hopefully we aren't taking them lightly (and hopefully Skinner stops more pucks than in his game last year!)


Detroit has been surprising teams with bursts of offense. Maybe Tip is just going for a wide open back and forth game and wants to see some McDrai points.

Not a fan either of loading the top line. We know those guys are good together. We don't know if we can sustain a 2 line attack and the lack of one has killed us in the playoffs multiple times. Just wasting time that we could be building more chemistry with balanced lines. And confidence for Tip that 2 lines can work, since he panics and goes back to a 1 line team in the playoffs if it doesn't work immediately.


Hope it's just a ploy to throw off the Wings. I don't understand the logic if he really does go back to McDrai right now.

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794130 is a reply to message #794129 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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Mike wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 10:57

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 13:41

Adam wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 10:08

No a big fan of some of what Tippett is doing. We're rolling with two lines, and then he decides we need to return to McDavid & Draisaitl on the same line. Despite that, the 2nd line last game was actually really good - so we move Yamamoto down the lineup?

Kassian hasn't done a lot to earn a promotion to my eyes. He was -2 last game on a struggling third line and he's only managed 7 shots on the entire season so far.

I do think the fourth line looks better with Shore and Turris off it, although I would really like to see Benson & McLeod reunited at some point. It seems like that's too much youth for Tippett though.

All that said, Detroit should be a punching bag, even with their relatively hot start this year. They have surprised a couple of teams this year, including the Penguins and the Golden Knights, so hopefully we aren't taking them lightly (and hopefully Skinner stops more pucks than in his game last year!)


Detroit has been surprising teams with bursts of offense. Maybe Tip is just going for a wide open back and forth game and wants to see some McDrai points.

Not a fan either of loading the top line. We know those guys are good together. We don't know if we can sustain a 2 line attack and the lack of one has killed us in the playoffs multiple times. Just wasting time that we could be building more chemistry with balanced lines. And confidence for Tip that 2 lines can work, since he panics and goes back to a 1 line team in the playoffs if it doesn't work immediately.


Hope it's just a ploy to throw off the Wings. I don't understand the logic if he really does go back to McDrai right now.



They were re-united against the Rangers, so I don't think there's any ruse here.

Tippett just gravitates back to that same tactic over and over. The thing I don't understand is that it isn't like it wasn't working to have Hyman with Puljujarvi and McDavid, and it finally got Yamamoto scoring...so why abandon it? The issues with the team are around the bottom six -so maybe focus on that?

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794127 is a reply to message #794120 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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I dunno - that forward group just looks so much worse to me. Sure, the top line is probably a little better, but the 3rd is a little worse, and the 2nd much worse.

For Yamamoto, it's not just his 2 goals, but he had his best games the last couple of games. He seemed to be coming back around to 19-20 form, so naturally the play here is to drop him down to the 3rd line? icon_rolleyes

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794124 is a reply to message #794117 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oscargasm is currently offline Oscargasm
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SKIIIIIIIIINNERRRRRR!!

Excited to see Kass with the Nugent-Hyman line. Yam found the back of the net but that bottom 6 has leaked goals. Can understand the swap Tipp made.

Leeeeeezgo Oilers!

Must.

Survivor CHAMP S52 | S66
OG's #MUSTWIN Scale
Category 1 - Lightly Musty
Category 2 - Moderately Musty
Category 3 - Considerably Musty
Category 4 - Severely Musty
Category 5 - Incredibly Musty

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794131 is a reply to message #794124 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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It's nice to see Skinner get into a game, I hope he does well. If he can be the back up next year, that would be huge.

The team is 9-1 and people are still carving the coach or finding other things to complain about. I am assuming if the day comes they ever win a championship some people will complain they didn't win the last game by enough or didn't win the series fast enough.

[Updated on: Tue, 09 November 2021 11:37]

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794136 is a reply to message #794131 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 11:14

It's nice to see Skinner get into a game, I hope he does well. If he can be the back up next year, that would be huge.

The team is 9-1 and people are still carving the coach or finding other things to complain about. I am assuming if the day comes they ever win a championship some people will complain they didn't win the last game by enough or didn't win the series fast enough.


This is the second post like this in two days from a poster annoyed because people are daring to criticize the team. You should always look at your team with a critical eye. It is a mistake to think just because you've won a few games that the team is beyond reproach - just as it's a mistake to think you should tear it all down if you have a long losing streak.

So let's look at what's gone wrong the last couple of years and see if we have addressed these things:

- Lack of depth scoring - the 3rd and 4th line have been badly outscored and most are minus players despite the team being 9-1.

- the coach's heavy reliance on loading up McDavid/Draisaitl which makes it easier for other teams to try to throw a blanket over them in the post-season. He doesn't seem to have confidence that the team can work with those two split up and at the first sign of trouble he reverts to that.

- Over-reliance on special teams - this is of course a problem because the NHL throws out their rule book in the playoffs. Well, so far, 15 of the Oilers 45 goals this year are on the powerplay. That's a full third for anyone keeping score. On top of that, the powerplay is firing at a ridiculous 50% efficiency. While I think it is the best powerplay in the game, I also think it's fair to say that it is likely to regress.

- An unwillingness to challenge the league or refs about persistent non-calls. As the team's powerplay efficiency has continued to climb, we're seeing less calls from the referees - afraid that giving the Oilers too many powerplays will decide the game. They should be calling infractions - it is the other team giving up the game by doing illegal things not the ref's fault, but it's a microcosm of what we can expect to see in the post-season. Again, complete silence from the Oilers, even as media pundits puzzle about the decided lack of calls drawn by McDavid.

- Defence issues - I think it's safe to say we haven't really fixed that, even though we've shuffled the players involved.

- Goaltending issues - It's the same tandem. Smith is hurt again. Koskinen is getting overplayed again.

- Coaching issues as the Oilers get out-maneuvered by opposition coaches and Tippett shows no creativity. Still an issue - we're just fortunate we have some incredible players who can win games no matter what sometimes.

I don't think any of these things are unfair to point out, and I really really hope that Holland, Lowe & Nicholson aren't just looking at the record and thinking all is well with the world. We have some of the ingredients of a championship team, so what does it take to get us over the edge? Understanding these weaknesses now could make a big difference in finding and acquiring the right pieces to excel.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794138 is a reply to message #794136 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG is currently offline NetBOG
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Adam wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 12:48



This is the second post like this in two days from a poster annoyed because people are daring to criticize the team. You should always look at your team with a critical eye. It is a mistake to think just because you've won a few games that the team is beyond reproach - just as it's a mistake to think you should tear it all down if you have a long losing streak.

So let's look at what's gone wrong the last couple of years and see if we have addressed these things:

- Lack of depth scoring - the 3rd and 4th line have been badly outscored and most are minus players despite the team being 9-1.

- the coach's heavy reliance on loading up McDavid/Draisaitl which makes it easier for other teams to try to throw a blanket over them in the post-season. He doesn't seem to have confidence that the team can work with those two split up and at the first sign of trouble he reverts to that.

- Over-reliance on special teams - this is of course a problem because the NHL throws out their rule book in the playoffs. Well, so far, 15 of the Oilers 45 goals this year are on the powerplay. That's a full third for anyone keeping score. On top of that, the powerplay is firing at a ridiculous 50% efficiency. While I think it is the best powerplay in the game, I also think it's fair to say that it is likely to regress.

- An unwillingness to challenge the league or refs about persistent non-calls. As the team's powerplay efficiency has continued to climb, we're seeing less calls from the referees - afraid that giving the Oilers too many powerplays will decide the game. They should be calling infractions - it is the other team giving up the game by doing illegal things not the ref's fault, but it's a microcosm of what we can expect to see in the post-season. Again, complete silence from the Oilers, even as media pundits puzzle about the decided lack of calls drawn by McDavid.

- Defence issues - I think it's safe to say we haven't really fixed that, even though we've shuffled the players involved.

- Goaltending issues - It's the same tandem. Smith is hurt again. Koskinen is getting overplayed again.

- Coaching issues as the Oilers get out-maneuvered by opposition coaches and Tippett shows no creativity. Still an issue - we're just fortunate we have some incredible players who can win games no matter what sometimes.

I don't think any of these things are unfair to point out, and I really really hope that Holland, Lowe & Nicholson aren't just looking at the record and thinking all is well with the world. We have some of the ingredients of a championship team, so what does it take to get us over the edge? Understanding these weaknesses now could make a big difference in finding and acquiring the right pieces to excel.


Aaah yes, leave it to the Eeyore of Oilfans to shout down anybody that has even a tiny bit of optimism.

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794141 is a reply to message #794138 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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NetBOG wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 13:00


Aaah yes, leave it to the Eeyore of Oilfans to shout down anybody that has even a tiny bit of optimism.



You would have more of a point if my post was in response to him glowing about the great performance of the team and especially the top players this year.

His post was complaining about my analysis of coaching decisions, so I think it was hardly me tearing him down over his optimism.

Actually, I think my posts tend to be a lot more upbeat than most of yours - but then it can come off a little dour when you just obsessively criticize a guy who hasn't played for the Oilers in 5 years...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794150 is a reply to message #794136 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
benv is currently offline benv
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Adam wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 12:48

You should always look at your team with a critical eye.


I would disagree with this statement. I think you should do whatever the hell you want with respect to how you cheer for your favourite sports teams. If you want to be optimistic and uncritical, go for it. If you want to tear the team down for all miniscule perceived faults, have at 'er.

Either way it's not going to change what the management does or how the team performs on the ice. When you have no control over an outcome I think it's ok to handle things the way that gives you the most enjoyment from following your team.

Obviously if anyone actually has some influence on what the team might do, then I will change my tune...

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794151 is a reply to message #794150 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi is currently offline CrusaderPi
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benv wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 15:03

Adam wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 12:48

You should always look at your team with a critical eye.


I would disagree with this statement. I think you should do whatever the hell you want with respect to how you cheer for your favourite sports teams. If you want to be optimistic and uncritical, go for it. If you want to tear the team down for all miniscule perceived faults, have at 'er.

Either way it's not going to change what the management does or how the team performs on the ice. When you have no control over an outcome I think it's ok to handle things the way that gives you the most enjoyment from following your team.

Obviously if anyone actually has some influence on what the team might do, then I will change my tune...


I think some teams have been forced into action because of fan revolts / the mood of fans. I haven't seen this happen in Edmonton. The Oilers (and Elks) seem to operate in spite of their fans.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794158 is a reply to message #794150 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 17:17 Go to previous message
Adam is currently offline Adam
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benv wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 15:03

Adam wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 12:48

You should always look at your team with a critical eye.


I would disagree with this statement. I think you should do whatever the hell you want with respect to how you cheer for your favourite sports teams. If you want to be optimistic and uncritical, go for it. If you want to tear the team down for all miniscule perceived faults, have at 'er.

Either way it's not going to change what the management does or how the team performs on the ice. When you have no control over an outcome I think it's ok to handle things the way that gives you the most enjoyment from following your team.

Obviously if anyone actually has some influence on what the team might do, then I will change my tune...



I can agree with this to a point. I'm not telling anyone they're wrong for not looking at the team critically. The complaints are coming from people telling me that I (and others) are wrong for doing so.

I think that my comment should absolutely apply to management - I'm not sure they act differently from some fans unfortunately, but they should look with the critical eye constantly.

I also think that clearly there is impacts from fan analysis. Not necessarily with the Oilers, as CrusaderPi points out but some teams do respond to fan anger in ways other than stubbornly doubling down. I also think it's worth noting that several former posters from this site have been hired by NHL teams because their analysis WAS valuable. Now, I'm not angling for a job with the team, but I think it's fair to say that some teams do value thoughtful outside perspectives.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
#FireLowe #FireBobbyNicks #FireKenHolland #FireKeithGretzky

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794139 is a reply to message #794131 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 14:14

The team is 9-1 and people are still carving the coach or finding other things to complain about. I am assuming if the day comes they ever win a championship some people will complain they didn't win the last game by enough or didn't win the series fast enough.


Good God man. It's a discussion forum. You want us to all sit in a circle with our pompoms? Nobody is jumping off a bridge - some are just questioning decisions.

You think demoting Yamamoto as he seems to be coming around is a good idea?

So based on this, you think having just one line is the key to the Stanley Cup. Got it.

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794147 is a reply to message #794139 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
welcometotheOC is currently offline welcometotheOC
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Mike wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 13:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 14:14

The team is 9-1 and people are still carving the coach or finding other things to complain about. I am assuming if the day comes they ever win a championship some people will complain they didn't win the last game by enough or didn't win the series fast enough.


Good God man. It's a discussion forum. You want us to all sit in a circle with our pompoms? Nobody is jumping off a bridge - some are just questioning decisions.

You think demoting Yamamoto as he seems to be coming around is a good idea?

So based on this, you think having just one line is the key to the Stanley Cup. Got it.


I see the changes as more of an experiment and Tippet trying to get Kassian going as he has gone into cruise control again...

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794155 is a reply to message #794147 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently offline RDOilerfan
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welcometotheOC wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 14:27

Mike wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 13:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 14:14

The team is 9-1 and people are still carving the coach or finding other things to complain about. I am assuming if the day comes they ever win a championship some people will complain they didn't win the last game by enough or didn't win the series fast enough.


Good God man. It's a discussion forum. You want us to all sit in a circle with our pompoms? Nobody is jumping off a bridge - some are just questioning decisions.

You think demoting Yamamoto as he seems to be coming around is a good idea?

So based on this, you think having just one line is the key to the Stanley Cup. Got it.


I see the changes as more of an experiment and Tippet trying to get Kassian going as he has gone into cruise control again...


It's a long ways away but I personally do not think you can win in the playoffs if Nuge and Yamo are both in your top 6 on the same line. So experimenting isn't a bad thing.

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794156 is a reply to message #794155 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike is currently offline Mike
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RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 19:32

welcometotheOC wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 14:27

Mike wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 13:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Tue, 09 November 2021 14:14

The team is 9-1 and people are still carving the coach or finding other things to complain about. I am assuming if the day comes they ever win a championship some people will complain they didn't win the last game by enough or didn't win the series fast enough.


Good God man. It's a discussion forum. You want us to all sit in a circle with our pompoms? Nobody is jumping off a bridge - some are just questioning decisions.

You think demoting Yamamoto as he seems to be coming around is a good idea?

So based on this, you think having just one line is the key to the Stanley Cup. Got it.


I see the changes as more of an experiment and Tippet trying to get Kassian going as he has gone into cruise control again...


It's a long ways away but I personally do not think you can win in the playoffs if Nuge and Yamo are both in your top 6 on the same line. So experimenting isn't a bad thing.


Fair enough. I don’t share your opinion on RNH, but Yamamoto I’m not in love with.

Rumours about the Rags being out of favour with Kakko. Yamo for Kakko?

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 Re: Pregame: Edmonton @ Detroit (Game #11) [message #794157 is a reply to message #794139 ]
Tue, 09 November 2021 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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Location: edmonton
No Cups
Also, as Leon and Connor have said, regular season wins mean nothing. They just get you to the playoffs. Winning there is all that matters.
I love how hyped everyone is about the Oilers, it's electric these days. But we're winning our games in ways that are not sustainable in playoffs. Nobody wants to beat the team down while we're successful. Quite the opposite. We see what's wrong and we're hopeful that the people in charge see this too. Unfortunately, their history of poor decisions seems to say otherwise. Thus, we gripe.

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