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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785032 is a reply to message #785029 ]
Wed, 12 May 2021 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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K.McC#24 wrote on Wed, 12 May 2021 22:04


I will say that plenty of NHL players have had their work ethic questioned, I mean I've had my ole trusty whipping boys that I questioned that. I'm still convinced Ales Hemsky might have been among the greats had he not been content with where he was, but that's just my perception. As far as Bear goes I have no more concern that this would be racially motivated than as far as any other NHL hockey player is concerned. Basketball? Yeah there's probably a stereotype there. Alan Iverson. (Practice?). But then again, you can look at a guy like Kevin Love and wonder where the work ethic and GAF factor are at..

In terms of the language, I'm old enough to have been a Warren Moon fan from the time he arrived with the Eskimos in 78 I think. I was that white kid who pretended to be Moon when we played flag football or good ole 2 hand touch. What really bothered me when I was old enough to figure it out was when analysts pointed out not only how athletic, but how 'bright and intelligent' Moon and similar athletes were. I mean yeah the guy can learn a playbook and read defenses as well as probably captain the team, of course he's intelligent. It just killed me how these analysts were nearly acting like they were witnessing a unicorn. My guess is that the dumbass to intelligence ratio is pretty much even across races, but yeah..... preconceptions used to be prevalent and are still out there.



It's funny because the late 1970s isn't that long ago - but the reality is, Moon might never have had to play in the CFL if not for the fact he was black. He was a ridiculous talent and probably should have been in the NFL the whole time.

I think it's more prevalent in hockey than you think. Look at who is more likely to be labelled as mentally soft, lazy or enigmatic. Europeans would make up a pretty high percentage there - from Kent Nilsson to Petr Klima to Alexei Kovalev to Ales Hemsky...the list goes on and on. You do see the same sort of backhanded compliments to any European with a more gritty game too - as if they don't actually have any bodychecking in the game outside of North America.

We have absolutely seen that there's racism against black players - D'Andre Miller and that interrupted Zoom call last year being one of the worst cases - and while we like to think that we're not racist in Canada, and certainly I don't think it is as pronounced, it isn't like it doesn't exist. I do think that on the whole, Canadians are more likely to be racist towards First Nations than just about any other group. Sometimes rather casually racist at that. There is not a doubt in my mind that some of the criticism you see of Bear on twitter is racially tinged, and if he was a good ol' white kid from Red Deer, Alberta, some of that criticism just wouldn't be there.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785045 is a reply to message #785032 ]
Thu, 13 May 2021 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K.McC#24  is currently offline K.McC#24
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Adam wrote on Wed, 12 May 2021 23:22

K.McC#24 wrote on Wed, 12 May 2021 22:04


I will say that plenty of NHL players have had their work ethic questioned, I mean I've had my ole trusty whipping boys that I questioned that. I'm still convinced Ales Hemsky might have been among the greats had he not been content with where he was, but that's just my perception. As far as Bear goes I have no more concern that this would be racially motivated than as far as any other NHL hockey player is concerned. Basketball? Yeah there's probably a stereotype there. Alan Iverson. (Practice?). But then again, you can look at a guy like Kevin Love and wonder where the work ethic and GAF factor are at..

In terms of the language, I'm old enough to have been a Warren Moon fan from the time he arrived with the Eskimos in 78 I think. I was that white kid who pretended to be Moon when we played flag football or good ole 2 hand touch. What really bothered me when I was old enough to figure it out was when analysts pointed out not only how athletic, but how 'bright and intelligent' Moon and similar athletes were. I mean yeah the guy can learn a playbook and read defenses as well as probably captain the team, of course he's intelligent. It just killed me how these analysts were nearly acting like they were witnessing a unicorn. My guess is that the dumbass to intelligence ratio is pretty much even across races, but yeah..... preconceptions used to be prevalent and are still out there.



It's funny because the late 1970s isn't that long ago - but the reality is, Moon might never have had to play in the CFL if not for the fact he was black. He was a ridiculous talent and probably should have been in the NFL the whole time.

I think it's more prevalent in hockey than you think. Look at who is more likely to be labelled as mentally soft, lazy or enigmatic. Europeans would make up a pretty high percentage there - from Kent Nilsson to Petr Klima to Alexei Kovalev to Ales Hemsky...the list goes on and on. You do see the same sort of backhanded compliments to any European with a more gritty game too - as if they don't actually have any bodychecking in the game outside of North America.

We have absolutely seen that there's racism against black players - D'Andre Miller and that interrupted Zoom call last year being one of the worst cases - and while we like to think that we're not racist in Canada, and certainly I don't think it is as pronounced, it isn't like it doesn't exist. I do think that on the whole, Canadians are more likely to be racist towards First Nations than just about any other group. Sometimes rather casually racist at that. There is not a doubt in my mind that some of the criticism you see of Bear on twitter is racially tinged, and if he was a good ol' white kid from Red Deer, Alberta, some of that criticism just wouldn't be there.


Moon would have been drafted mid rounds probably and would have been miscast as a FB or a TE in an NFL camp. He probably wouldn't have had much of a career let alone a HOF career had he not signed as a FA for the Eskimos. Had he been able to start his career in the NFL normally as a high end QB prospect, it's quite possible that he'd hold the marks that Manning, Brees, and Brady were shooting for, and had a championship or more there (I still sort of hate the Bills).

To clarify, I was just speaking about a laziness/work ethic stereotype, not being a racism denier. I don't think there's much racial overtones to laziness commentary for non whites that are disproportionate at least in terms of the NHL. Certainly if you have a predominantly white sport and you have 5% POC or whatever it is, those guys can't hide and unfortunately are subject to racism. Ethan Bear as FN probably has seen it all. I was speaking specifically about the comment about Bear and his work ethic, and although non white hockey players have all had their share of racist abuse, as far as NHL players go, to repeat, I can't say that I've heard of non white athletes being targeted for being lazy proportionally more than anyone else. If the data says otherwise, sure, but for me at least, I don't get that. For me, every player I've been disappointed in in that manner, (having more to give) has been disproportionately white so far, but then again just my perspective, and I'm not on Twitter. No offense to Twitter folks, but there are lots of special types on Twitter, of all kinds.

As far Europeans go, I can't say I'm that concerned about those stereotypes, having European heritage, but if we're eliminating stereotypes, eliminate them all. That said stereotypes probably won't disappear completely until humanity is completely homogenous and everyone is somehow living under the same circumstances, the best we can do is get rid of the really crappy ones. Ales Hemsky for me happened to be European. Dustin Penner was Canadian but probably has close relatives who are strong Mennonites, so... I probably would have been on really white American Phil Kessel's case from time to time, or most of the time, were he an Oiler. Was Leon Draisatl skating for Leon or the team?

If anything, non whites probably have to work harder to play in the NHL just because, so any unfounded bias for laziness would probably stand out there. As far as Ethan Bear is concerned , either the exit interviews with him at the end of the 2019 season mentioned skills and conditioning work, or his own agent/team did, or he took it upon himself, or a combination of these. In fact HE had to buy in and do the work, and it was Bear himself who spoke about his summer of 2019, and the work he put in and the difference it made. This experience was probably like countless players before him, including the discussion coming back to camp.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785069 is a reply to message #784983 ]
Thu, 13 May 2021 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
inverno76  is currently offline inverno76
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Adam wrote on Wed, 12 May 2021 15:06

inverno76 wrote on Wed, 12 May 2021 14:20


Bear's skating and his hockey sense are improving. I think the only thing that will hold him back from developing further will be his work ethic. Does he have that inner drive to separate himself from a good NHL'er to a great NHL'er?


I've seen zero suggestions or evidence that Ethan Bear has any work ethic issues. I find these comments sometimes a little bit challenging, because they're way more likely to be applied to players of colour or European than a white Western Canadian guy. You see it in football with black quarterbacks - often it's either work ethic or intelligence being questioned.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not accusing you of being racist or even racially insensitive. I just think we need to be careful about saying this sort of thing unless there's some real solid evidence that it is actually an issue.

FWIW, I don't know that I see Bear becoming a "great NHLer". I am not certain there's an all-star there, and I think he's never going to get the PP push he'd need to be seen a such. Between Barrie, Klefbom, Nurse, Bouchard...I don't think he ever gets a chance. That's not on work ethic though.



No worries. I am of First Nations heritage, but not that it makes a difference, but I brag that I can Smudge with the best of them, lol. My work ethic statement comment comes from earlier in his Pro career where he admitted that he did not train or take the offseason as serious as he should have.

He’s since corrected his training regime, but it appeared that he has been able to
flourish on skill alone in the past and it’s reasonable to believe he may lose focus once again.

I truly believe the work ethic is what separates the good from the great. I really love Bear’s game and after McD and Draisaitl, he’s my man. Skin colour or birthplace is irrelevant to me.

[Updated on: Thu, 13 May 2021 14:51]


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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785077 is a reply to message #784602 ]
Thu, 13 May 2021 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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The Matty has spoken!


Jim Matheson @jimmathesonnhl

Suspect UFA Adam Larsson's new Oiler deal when officially hammered out will be 4 years in $3.75 mil range a season with NHL flat cap. Larsson has been outstanding this season, big, heavy shutdown D minutes. There's nobody on RD who plays like he knows.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785078 is a reply to message #785077 ]
Thu, 13 May 2021 17:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kr55 wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:18

The Matty has spoken!


Jim Matheson @jimmathesonnhl

Suspect UFA Adam Larsson's new Oiler deal when officially hammered out will be 4 years in $3.75 mil range a season with NHL flat cap. Larsson has been outstanding this season, big, heavy shutdown D minutes. There's nobody on RD who plays like he knows.


The good news is, if Matheson thinks a deal is close, he probably hits free agency.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785081 is a reply to message #785078 ]
Thu, 13 May 2021 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:26

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:18

The Matty has spoken!


Jim Matheson @jimmathesonnhl

Suspect UFA Adam Larsson's new Oiler deal when officially hammered out will be 4 years in $3.75 mil range a season with NHL flat cap. Larsson has been outstanding this season, big, heavy shutdown D minutes. There's nobody on RD who plays like he knows.


The good news is, if Matheson thinks a deal is close, he probably hits free agency.



Isn’t that the truth. He’s so far out here of touch I would give Treena’s Oil more legitimacy.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785087 is a reply to message #785081 ]
Thu, 13 May 2021 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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inverno76 wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 19:00

CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:26

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:18

The Matty has spoken!


Jim Matheson @jimmathesonnhl

Suspect UFA Adam Larsson's new Oiler deal when officially hammered out will be 4 years in $3.75 mil range a season with NHL flat cap. Larsson has been outstanding this season, big, heavy shutdown D minutes. There's nobody on RD who plays like he knows.


The good news is, if Matheson thinks a deal is close, he probably hits free agency.



Isn’t that the truth. He’s so far out here of touch I would give Treena’s Oil more legitimacy.


Didn't Matty call the Kassian deal? 4x3.5M I think he said and it ended up 3.2M.

So, Larsson 4x3.5M?

Wow, if you compare that to the Kassian deal, I think you could only conclude it would be a steal for the Oilers! Do it up!



"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #785116 is a reply to message #785087 ]
Fri, 14 May 2021 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I see why Larrson is the main priority signing on the back end right now with Barrie most likely leaving for a long term payday in the UFA market.

I'm fine with that if that's the way if unfolds. Larsson at just under $4 million a year for hopefully 3 years, maybe 4 is decent. Cap hit is really good and giving a 4th year cuz of a lower cap hit is a reasonable trade off. Probably a NMC for at least the first 1-2 years I would guess. Hopefully his footspeed doesn't go down hill to quickly as he is about average right now & sometimes his lateral movements get a little slow, especially against small/quick forwards.

I would guess with Larrson signing before the expansion draft that Holland has decided he will lose a decent young Dman, so he is fine with that. Probably Jones I would guess.

Expansion protection would be Nurse, Larrson & Bear in a 7/3/1 scenario & Nurse, Larrson, Bear & Jones in a 4/4/1 scenario is what I would guess.

If Barrie does go UFA and somehow (Doubtful IMO) he circles back because the TERM in other teams offers is not much better than the Oilers, maybe there is a chance that happens...very slight I would guess. Someone pays Barrie somewhere in the area of at least 5 x $6.5 million I would guess at minimum. Oilers can't afford that if they pay up for Nuge and Larrson.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #788569 is a reply to message #785078 ]
Sat, 03 July 2021 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:26

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:18

The Matty has spoken!


Jim Matheson @jimmathesonnhl

Suspect UFA Adam Larsson's new Oiler deal when officially hammered out will be 4 years in $3.75 mil range a season with NHL flat cap. Larsson has been outstanding this season, big, heavy shutdown D minutes. There's nobody on RD who plays like he knows.


The good news is, if Matheson thinks a deal is close, he probably hits free agency.


You wouldn’t want Larsson at that price point?? Much like Nuge, it might be a year longer than ideal but the salary is downright cheap. Or are you wanting him to hit free agency and be signed after the expansion draft?



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #788573 is a reply to message #788569 ]
Sat, 03 July 2021 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrudeRemarks  is currently offline CrudeRemarks
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Skoobz wrote on Sat, 03 July 2021 08:38

CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:26

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:18

The Matty has spoken!


Jim Matheson @jimmathesonnhl

Suspect UFA Adam Larsson's new Oiler deal when officially hammered out will be 4 years in $3.75 mil range a season with NHL flat cap. Larsson has been outstanding this season, big, heavy shutdown D minutes. There's nobody on RD who plays like he knows.


The good news is, if Matheson thinks a deal is close, he probably hits free agency.


You wouldn’t want Larsson at that price point?? Much like Nuge, it might be a year longer than ideal but the salary is downright cheap. Or are you wanting him to hit free agency and be signed after the expansion draft?

I would prefer not to lose Larsson for nothing. But if he wants to stay and the number is reasonable, you just wait. Protect another D, so that he is playing for a better team next season, and the. Sign him right after expansion.



You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.


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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #788843 is a reply to message #788573 ]
Thu, 08 July 2021 23:42 Go to previous message
Skoobz  is currently offline Skoobz
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Ok. This makes sense. I misunderstood at first, but totally agree with you.

CrudeRemarks wrote on Sat, 03 July 2021 12:35

Skoobz wrote on Sat, 03 July 2021 08:38

CrudeRemarks wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:26

Kr55 wrote on Thu, 13 May 2021 17:18

The Matty has spoken!


Jim Matheson @jimmathesonnhl

Suspect UFA Adam Larsson's new Oiler deal when officially hammered out will be 4 years in $3.75 mil range a season with NHL flat cap. Larsson has been outstanding this season, big, heavy shutdown D minutes. There's nobody on RD who plays like he knows.


The good news is, if Matheson thinks a deal is close, he probably hits free agency.


You wouldn’t want Larsson at that price point?? Much like Nuge, it might be a year longer than ideal but the salary is downright cheap. Or are you wanting him to hit free agency and be signed after the expansion draft?

I would prefer not to lose Larsson for nothing. But if he wants to stay and the number is reasonable, you just wait. Protect another D, so that he is playing for a better team next season, and the. Sign him right after expansion.




"[It was] really cool to throw on the Oilers gear, the gear that I want to play the rest of my life wearing. It was pretty cool to put it on. With all the history, it was a lot of fun." - Connor McDavid, July 1, 2015

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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #788550 is a reply to message #784602 ]
Fri, 02 July 2021 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NetBOG  is currently offline NetBOG
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Eric Duhatschek in the Athletic on signing Adam Larsson before the expansion draft
Quote:


That’s an interesting choice by Holland and the Oilers, because they would be within the rules to put tentative contract agreements in place but leave both Nugent-Hopkins and Larsson unprotected for Seattle, which would allow them to protect two other signed players, and then complete the paperwork on the extensions a few days after Seattle picked its team. The fact that they didn’t do it with Nugent-Hopkins, and may not with Larsson — if they announce an extension in the next three weeks — suggests Holland is trying to follow both the spirit and the letter of the law. You wonder if any other NHL GMs will be similarly inclined to follow suit.


It's frustrating that the Oilers won't just do whatever is best for them. They have to some high morality, even though it's not against the rules and literally everyone else will do it given the chance.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #788554 is a reply to message #788550 ]
Fri, 02 July 2021 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam is currently online Adam
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NetBOG wrote on Fri, 02 July 2021 16:34

Eric Duhatschek in the Athletic on signing Adam Larsson before the expansion draft
Quote:


That’s an interesting choice by Holland and the Oilers, because they would be within the rules to put tentative contract agreements in place but leave both Nugent-Hopkins and Larsson unprotected for Seattle, which would allow them to protect two other signed players, and then complete the paperwork on the extensions a few days after Seattle picked its team. The fact that they didn’t do it with Nugent-Hopkins, and may not with Larsson — if they announce an extension in the next three weeks — suggests Holland is trying to follow both the spirit and the letter of the law. You wonder if any other NHL GMs will be similarly inclined to follow suit.


It's frustrating that the Oilers won't just do whatever is best for them. They have to some high morality, even though it's not against the rules and literally everyone else will do it given the chance.


You would think the example of the Tampa Bay Lightning would serve to show the Oilers that this behaviour is negligent. They really do think they're all a bunch of friends who just happen to have teams that play each other, and everyone is going to play nice in the sandbox and eventually it'll be our turn again. Idiots.



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #788570 is a reply to message #788550 ]
Sat, 03 July 2021 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K.McC#24  is currently offline K.McC#24
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NetBOG wrote on Fri, 02 July 2021 16:34

Eric Duhatschek in the Athletic on signing Adam Larsson before the expansion draft
Quote:


That’s an interesting choice by Holland and the Oilers, because they would be within the rules to put tentative contract agreements in place but leave both Nugent-Hopkins and Larsson unprotected for Seattle, which would allow them to protect two other signed players, and then complete the paperwork on the extensions a few days after Seattle picked its team. The fact that they didn’t do it with Nugent-Hopkins, and may not with Larsson — if they announce an extension in the next three weeks — suggests Holland is trying to follow both the spirit and the letter of the law. You wonder if any other NHL GMs will be similarly inclined to follow suit.


It's frustrating that the Oilers won't just do whatever is best for them. They have to some high morality, even though it's not against the rules and literally everyone else will do it given the chance.

I can't remember...were there a rash of players that appeared to do handshake deals and re-sign with their old clubs after the Vegas expansion?



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 Re: Adam Larsson - potential contract extension [message #788597 is a reply to message #788570 ]
Mon, 05 July 2021 08:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan  is currently offline RDOilerfan
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K.McC#24 wrote on Sat, 03 July 2021 10:44

NetBOG wrote on Fri, 02 July 2021 16:34

Eric Duhatschek in the Athletic on signing Adam Larsson before the expansion draft
Quote:


That’s an interesting choice by Holland and the Oilers, because they would be within the rules to put tentative contract agreements in place but leave both Nugent-Hopkins and Larsson unprotected for Seattle, which would allow them to protect two other signed players, and then complete the paperwork on the extensions a few days after Seattle picked its team. The fact that they didn’t do it with Nugent-Hopkins, and may not with Larsson — if they announce an extension in the next three weeks — suggests Holland is trying to follow both the spirit and the letter of the law. You wonder if any other NHL GMs will be similarly inclined to follow suit.


It's frustrating that the Oilers won't just do whatever is best for them. They have to some high morality, even though it's not against the rules and literally everyone else will do it given the chance.

I can't remember...were there a rash of players that appeared to do handshake deals and re-sign with their old clubs after the Vegas expansion?

Good question. I don't remember a ton of guys signing within a few mins of the expansion draft being done.

I think it would be a tough decision whether to chance not resigning Nuge and Larsson prior. So you do it, then you have to protect them. So that makes another forward and dman available. I don't think the forwards were an issue but the dmen maybe are. But if you don't resign them, you run the risk of Seattle running up the cost. So you don't protect Nuge, Seattle takes him or they at the very least get to talk to him early. He still wants to be an Oiler but he knows he can get over 6 for the same term from Seattle. He still will take a haircut to stay but now he needs an extra 500K a season. So was it worth an extra 500k a season not to resign him early, all so you could protect say Benson who may never be an NHLer. Or same for Larsson. They want him. Your coach names him by name as critical. Your 2 franchise players name him by name as critical. You can get him right now for something between 3.5-3.75 on 4 yrs or you wait, Seattle talks to him or takes him and the price point rises you 4.2 mill because Seattle's owners wants to spend money.

I am not losing a lot of sleep if the Oilers lose Jones as nothing so far has shown me he can be anything more than a 3rd pairing guy that need someone on his right side to help him defend. 24 yrs old with over 200 pro games (NHL/AHL). In my opinion, he should be able to be a consistent 3rd pairing guy this season and he wasn't even close at time. But still a tough call.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 July 2021 08:23]


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