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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742048 is a reply to message #742019 ]	Thu, 29 August 2019 08:52

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

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Kr55 wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 18:40

Adam wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 16:24

Skookum Jim wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 12:31

When Finnish GM Jarmo Kekäläinen passed on a super hyped Finnish wonder kid, a world junior champ, that was a big tell...
I'm hoping the Oilers had a Finnish scout in the interview process, if not I hope they've learned ... (horse gone .. barn door closed). Despite all the discussion about a lack of a development plan, basically Pulju hasn't displayed an elite level at anything, which you should have seen at some point by now, I'm afraid he's looking more like what you see, is what he is.

Two busted top picks (Yak & Pulju) have really burned this franchise... although on a + note... you could argue Yak kind of helped us get McD!! .. yeah Yak!! Wave Towel

I wouldn't give Yakupov a lot of credit for McDavid. That's on MacTavish and Eakins. Yakupov was just one small piece of the puzzle. The defence and goalies weren't good, we had some injuries, we entered the season with the weakest lineup of centers possible...

Holland said, rightly, yesterday that anyone in the league would have taken Puljujarvi top 5 that year. He was a top pick, and the Oilers didn't make a big mistake drafting him, but the development path they chose was very flawed and we are now where we are.

Even with those two picks failing to live up to their billing - Yakupov and Puljujarvi - if not for the management, we could be a top end team. We had 3 other first overall picks, plus another #3 and a #7 and a #8 and a #10 in the last 10 years. If you can't build with that kind of draft advantage, then you're not doing it right.

It's clear the scouting on Pulju was poor at this point. People fell in love with his physical attributes and how he was able to dominate other kids with his huge frame and speed. The hockey sense was never quite there though and people looked past it. Watch his old highlights from the WJHC. He looks like he did in the NHL, almost exactly. Lots of speed, somewhat clumsy skating, choppy stick handling, and he's constantly forcing plays. It worked for him against kids, it hasn't at all in the NHL. His shot was never very accurate either.

It's a bummer. And we fell far too in love with the physical attributes like everyone else did. Pulju should probably be going into his 2nd ELC year next season if we properly brought him along based on where his actual smarts with the puck were at in his draft year with a top end still likely in the middle 6, but pretty clear he's not a top end talent. A guy actually worthy of the hype Pulju got would be able to figure out how to contribute in the NHL without needing to be babied by coaches. If you're good, you're good, and you force coaches to use you if they want to keep their job. He's not even close to the first guy that was able to trick scouts by being able to dominate other kids with physical attributes, but wasn't able to figure out how to make the head and hands work quickly enough in the NHL against skilled defenders. There are unfortunately a lot of parallels to Yak here.

JP was bigger than a lot of the juniors he played against and he was the 3rd guy on a stacked Finnish junior line. He had a 80+ point center in Aho and a 35+ goal sniper on his line. Does he have talent, sure he does. You have to have some talent to play with those types of players. But do I think he was propped up a bit by having 2 NHL stars on his line? Hell yes. Kassian last year looked like he could be a top 6 player when he was on a line with the best player in the world in McDavid and a 50 goal, 100 pt player in Leon who's also elite. Do I think Kassian is a top 6 player if he wasn't with McDavid and Leon? Hell no.

JP has talent but it was raw. Teams got dazzled by the physical tools but in reality, he shouldn't have been taken that high given just how much development time he needs.

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742049 is a reply to message #742048 ]	Thu, 29 August 2019 09:16

Adam
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Registered: August 2005
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 08:52

I love the revisionist history here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_World_Junior_Ice_Hockey_C hampionships

As one of the youngest guys in the tournament, he led the tourney in points with 17 in 7 games. He was also reputed to be the defensive conscience on that line - there were scouting reports saying he was unlikely to hit the same numbers that Laine would, but looked like he'd be a more rounded player.

Pos	Player	Country	GP	G	A	Pts	+/−	PIM
1	Jesse Puljujärvi	 Finland	7	5	12	17	+8	0
2	Sebastian Aho	 Finland	7	5	9	14	+9	4
3	Patrik Laine	 Finland	7	7	6	13	+8	6
4	Auston Matthews	 United States	7	7	4	11	+6	2
5	Matthew Tkachuk	 United States	7	4	7	11	+7	6
6	Alexander Nylander	 Sweden	7	4	5	9	+5	0
7	Zach Werenski	 United States	7	2	7	9	+10	4
8	Denis Malgin	  Switzerland	6	1	8	9	−1	6
9	Olli Juolevi	 Finland	7	0	9	9	+6	4
10	Christian Dvorak	 United States	7	3	5	8	+8	0
10	Adrian Kempe	 Sweden	7	3	5	8	+1	8

That's a lot of good players in that tournament, and there's Puljujarvi at the very top on the gold-medal winning team.

Let's not pretend that there was a really good argument that he wasn't a top-5 pick. I don't defend a lot that the Oilers do - but the drafting of Puljujarvi was completely justifiable - and likely the right decision at the time.

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742050 is a reply to message #742049 ]	Thu, 29 August 2019 09:30

Kr55
Messages: 9522
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Adam wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 09:16

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 08:52

Pos	Player	Country	GP	G	A	Pts	+/−	PIM
1	Jesse Puljujärvi	 Finland	7	5	12	17	+8	0
2	Sebastian Aho	 Finland	7	5	9	14	+9	4
3	Patrik Laine	 Finland	7	7	6	13	+8	6
4	Auston Matthews	 United States	7	7	4	11	+6	2
5	Matthew Tkachuk	 United States	7	4	7	11	+7	6
6	Alexander Nylander	 Sweden	7	4	5	9	+5	0
7	Zach Werenski	 United States	7	2	7	9	+10	4
8	Denis Malgin	  Switzerland	6	1	8	9	−1	6
9	Olli Juolevi	 Finland	7	0	9	9	+6	4
10	Christian Dvorak	 United States	7	3	5	8	+8	0
10	Adrian Kempe	 Sweden	7	3	5	8	+1	8

It was the right decision based on the consensus. Yak was the consensus #1 back when he was drafted. If he got to be RW on a line with Laine and Aho, he probably could have put up 17 points too in the WJHC. He could have won the tiny sample size battle vs those guys, despite being an inferior player to both like Pulju did.

Scouting is not a perfect science. You never truly know how a guy will actually adjust to the NHL, and how he will be able to fill the gaps in his game that every kid has some of at 17/18. The truly elite guys figure that stuff out, on their own or by finding the best coaches to help. The guys that were just physically gifted and got by by being able to dominate teenagers, but can't figure out how to make the necessary adjustments playing against men, well, those guys end up like Yak and the current Pulju.

Benson is older for sure, and he was drafted around where he was supposed to be. Pulju was drafted in a place where you're supposed to be getting an elite player. He could very well end up putting things together years down the road, but it gets significantly less likely every year, and IMO it's already safe to say the scouts were wrong here.

[Updated on: Thu, 29 August 2019 09:32]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742059 is a reply to message #742049 ]	Thu, 29 August 2019 11:15

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3686
Registered: January 2016

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Adam wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 09:16

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 08:52

Pos	Player	Country	GP	G	A	Pts	+/−	PIM
1	Jesse Puljujärvi	 Finland	7	5	12	17	+8	0
2	Sebastian Aho	 Finland	7	5	9	14	+9	4
3	Patrik Laine	 Finland	7	7	6	13	+8	6
4	Auston Matthews	 United States	7	7	4	11	+6	2
5	Matthew Tkachuk	 United States	7	4	7	11	+7	6
6	Alexander Nylander	 Sweden	7	4	5	9	+5	0
7	Zach Werenski	 United States	7	2	7	9	+10	4
8	Denis Malgin	  Switzerland	6	1	8	9	−1	6
9	Olli Juolevi	 Finland	7	0	9	9	+6	4
10	Christian Dvorak	 United States	7	3	5	8	+8	0
10	Adrian Kempe	 Sweden	7	3	5	8	+1	8

It's amazing to me how many excuses you can come up for JP and how you sluff off the fact that YES a team is responsible for developing a player but it's up to the player to do it. If he doesn't train properly or in the case of JP, go to English classes or whatever else they are told to do, he's not going to develop no matter how good a team is at development. A team can only do so much. Did the Oilers screw up, yes they did. None of that is being denied. But how a player turns out is not solely the result of that a team does. A player and what he does is plays a MASSIVE role in where he ends up.

There are TONS of junior aged players every year who look absolutely dominate in junior, you tear up the World Juniors and amount to squat once they hit the pros. Don't believe me, look at the list of guys you posted. What's Nylander done? He was tied with Aho. He's not even an NHLer yet. What's Malgin done? What's Juolevi done? Again, another NON NHLer.He hasn't even made the NHL yet. If you want to ignore what I pointed out with your little chart, then go look at the roster of pretty much EVERY Canadian University team and they are littered with really, really high scoring, good CHL players who where some of the best players on their junior team, probably were the center of wingman of NHLers who didn't get a sniff at the NHL and won't ever get a sniff.

JP had a great tournament. GREAT!! It doesn't mean squat if you can't translate it to the next level.

[Updated on: Thu, 29 August 2019 11:21]

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742073 is a reply to message #742059 ]	Thu, 29 August 2019 15:03

Adam
Messages: 6801
Registered: August 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB

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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 11:15

Where, pray tell, did I give any excuses for Puljujarvi?

I believe my whole post was about the fact that the was a top-5 pick and that that wasn't a mistake given the information available at the time.

There IS a responsibility on the player and the team to the player's development. No one gets a pass on this. However, I think it should be more surprising that the team fails to live up to their side than the teenager. After all, they've done this all before, they're not just one adult but a whole group of adults getting paid to develop players. When you have a team that struggles with development like the Oilers do, where there's been MULTIPLE complaints about the kids "not getting it" or "not buying in" and team execs at a complete loss on how to handle it...well, maybe it's a team issue.

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men, you just can't reach.So you get what we had here last week -- which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it anymore than you men.

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742074 is a reply to message #742059 ]	Thu, 29 August 2019 15:07

Adam
Messages: 6801
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Location: Edmonton, AB

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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 11:15

There are TONS of junior aged players every year who look absolutely dominate in junior, you tear up the World Juniors and amount to squat once they hit the pros. Don't believe me, look at the list of guys you posted. What's Nylander done? He was tied with Aho. He's not even an NHLer yet. What's Malgin done? What's Juolevi done? Again, another NON NHLer.He hasn't even made the NHL yet. If you want to ignore what I pointed out with your little chart, then go look at the roster of pretty much EVERY Canadian University team and they are littered with really, really high scoring, good CHL players who where some of the best players on their junior team, probably were the center of wingman of NHLers who didn't get a sniff at the NHL and won't ever get a sniff.

JP had a great tournament. GREAT!! It doesn't mean squat if you can't translate it to the next level.

Also - you're defeating your own arguments here. All the kids in the 2016 World Juniors are still quite young - 20-23 years of age. Many players who grow up to be good players aren't in the NHL at age 21. Some don't make it, some will, but these are all still babies.

In case you're wondering, here's Team Canada's roster:

https://www.quanthockey.com/wjc-u20/en/teams/team-canada-pla yers-2016-wjc-u20-stats.html

Some pretty good players on a team that didn't do well at all.

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742078 is a reply to message #742074 ]	Thu, 29 August 2019 15:59

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3686
Registered: January 2016

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Adam wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 15:07

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 29 August 2019 11:15

There will always be the odd one but I am going to guess that most of the guys either on the Canada roster or on the other teams, if they are going to be any kind of impact NHLer, it's probably already happened or they are on the verge. I really doubt there are too many of them playing in a lesser league than the AHL trying to find their game after 3 years.

Could Puljujarvi one day be a decent NHLer, maybe. But it wouldn't shock me if he didn't resign in Finland for a couple more seasons like Yak did in the KHL this year. Maybe come over in his mid to late 20's.

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742102 is a reply to message #741909 ]	Fri, 30 August 2019 11:03

Kr55
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Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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Jesse is a 1.00 PPG and 1.00 GPG player in Finland now

https://twitter.com/championshockey/status/11674707421345792 10?s=20

Should clarify, it's pre-season.

[Updated on: Fri, 30 August 2019 11:16]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742106 is a reply to message #742102 ]	Fri, 30 August 2019 12:12

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3686
Registered: January 2016

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Nice to see JP looking good against a bunch of guys who most NHL teams don't even want on their AHL team. Hopefully he can do well and maybe this will translate into him being worth something but he did always look dominate when he played in the NHL preseason against never will be NHL players so I won't hold my breath.

[Updated on: Fri, 30 August 2019 12:14]

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742111 is a reply to message #742102 ]	Fri, 30 August 2019 12:53

jds308
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Kr55 wrote on Fri, 30 August 2019 10:03

Jesse is a 1.00 PPG and 1.00 GPG player in Finland now

https://twitter.com/championshockey/status/11674707421345792 10?s=20

Should clarify, it's pre-season.

I think it's great that the Finnish league is using blind goaltenders. It's a great opportunity for them. ;)

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742151 is a reply to message #742111 ]	Mon, 02 September 2019 22:26

stemhovlichski
Messages: 346
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Location: NSR

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jds308 wrote on Fri, 30 August 2019 12:53

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 30 August 2019 10:03

Jesse is a 1.00 PPG and 1.00 GPG player in Finland now

https://twitter.com/championshockey/status/11674707421345792 10?s=20

Should clarify, it's pre-season.

I think it's great that the Finnish league is using blind goaltenders. It's a great opportunity for them. ;)

Champions League tournament. He scored on his first shot (might have been the first shot of the game) playing against Grenoble. So it's the French League that uses blind goalies!

Restored: "We're sucking hind banana here." - Pat Quinn, Jan 18, 2010

"...the Oilers have been rebuilding for so long that it’s hard not to be cynical." - NBC's Ryan Dadoun Jan 2, 2015

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Re: Puljujarvi signs in Finland [message #742152 is a reply to message #742151 ]	Mon, 02 September 2019 22:58

Kr55
Messages: 9522
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

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stemhovlichski wrote on Mon, 02 September 2019 22:26

jds308 wrote on Fri, 30 August 2019 12:53

Kr55 wrote on Fri, 30 August 2019 10:03

Jesse is a 1.00 PPG and 1.00 GPG player in Finland now

https://twitter.com/championshockey/status/11674707421345792 10?s=20

Should clarify, it's pre-season.

I think it's great that the Finnish league is using blind goaltenders. It's a great opportunity for them. ;)

Champions League tournament. He scored on his first shot (might have been the first shot of the game) playing against Grenoble. So it's the French League that uses blind goalies!

Looks like he got 1 point in his 2nd game too, a goal 19 seconds into the game against a swiss league team. unfortunately, his team eventually lost with an OT winner by...Mark Arcobello!!!

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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