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Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724459]	Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Kr55
Messages: 9579
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724460 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:07

Oscargasm
Messages: 5663
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

Same song and dance we've heard before, just in different terms. Though to come from an Oilers ambassador such as Ference, a past Captain and area fitness legend, these are quite damning.

That's the one thing that sure seems different under Hitch. Toe drags don't seem to be a determining factor in ice-time icon_wink

icon_wink

Edit: I do agree that we as fans, and those in the media, tend to have a short leash with players who on them get placed high expectations such as Schultz. Not to "make excuses" but Oil Country is a hockey-crazed market and lets be frank, what else is really here for us? Eskimos? CFL football is a time filler between NHL Playoffs and the start of the NHL Season and NFL football. Yes, I am not in Edmonton, I'm in Sask, but my wife is from Edmonton and I had lived there for a few years before returning to Sask.

Not to mention the DoD, when we were sold HOPE that this youth movement was the answer to get back to the playoffs and glory.

If you think about it... Lowe and MacT may have sensed the direction the NHL was going before anyone else as they started the youth/speed game. Makes perfect sense as to why they're still around now.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 13:17]

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724462 is a reply to message #724460 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Kr55
Messages: 9579
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Oscargasm wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:07

Same song and dance we've heard before, just in different terms. Though to come from an Oilers ambassador such as Ference, a past Captain and area fitness legend, these are quite damning.

That's the one thing that sure seems different under Hitch. Toe drags don't seem to be a determining factor in ice-time icon_wink

icon_wink

Edit: I do agree that we as fans, and those in the media, tend to have a short leash with players who on them get placed high expectations such as Schultz. Not to "make excuses" but Oil Country is a hockey-crazed market and lets be frank, what else is really here for us? Eskimos? CFL football is a time filler between NHL Playoffs and the start of the NHL Season and NFL football. Yes, I am not in Edmonton, I'm in Sask, but my wife is from Edmonton and I had lived there for a few years before returning to Sask.

Not to mention the DoD, when we were sold HOPE that this youth movement was the answer to get back to the playoffs and glory.

If you think about it... Lowe and MacT may have sensed the direction the NHL was going before anyone else as they started the youth/speed game. Makes perfect sense as to why they're still around now.

Org also does a terrible job of defending their players, or even identifying the guys that are of value to them. MacT's challenge contract to Petry remains one of his most idiotic moves as GM. McLellan basically said to the media that Schultz needs to get the hell of the team after a game, right before he was traded. I think management likes the fans/media homing in on players and picking scapegoats to keep the focus off them. They never speak up or try to insulate those players, they throw them to the wolves and even drop some hints to the media what they don't like about certain players.

In the end, this team culture ended up exactly how you would expect it to when management hands the keys to a bunch of 20 year olds and puts no value on having good quality, still able to contribute at a high level vets on the team. And they make it even worse tossing a greenhorn like Eakins into the mix when they know this dysfunction exists. Lol, they had a guy that was known around the world as a motivator and someone that could get buy in from players in many walks of life in Krueger and they tossed him into the trash for Eakins. And every one of those dummies in charge then are still here, woohoo.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724463 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Steve
Messages: 105
Registered: October 2006
Location: Ottawa

No Cups

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

- Calvin

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724464 is a reply to message #724463 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:38

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7635
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Steve wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

I can't blame a 20 year old for acting like a 20 year old. I blame the 50 year old bosses, who were trying to relive their glory days for allowing the behavior.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724465 is a reply to message #724464 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7635
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724466 is a reply to message #724465 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

Kr55
Messages: 9579
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started. They got the media back in line very quickly when they started helping the cause. Spector almost got his career derailed.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724467 is a reply to message #724466 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7635
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started.

But does that make Edmonton different from other markets? Normie fans tend to get in line behind what the team tells the media and when the media, especially the rights holder, says.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724468 is a reply to message #724467 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 13:51

Kr55
Messages: 9579
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started.

But does that make Edmonton different from other markets? Normie fans tend to get in line behind what the team tells the media and when the media, especially the rights holder, says.

Nope, not different at all, I was agreeing. The fans here, like most people, grab onto the ideas that are repeated to them. Especially about the simple things in life like sports. Present them simple ideas of why things are going wrong and do it enough, it will take hold with the majority. And the Oilers org has been happy to sit back and let that stuff happen to their players. Probably because they are all doing the same thing, blaming individuals for the failings of the team. We've traded our share of good players on that premise.

What choice does the org have though? If they are all trying to save their jobs, and they have been lingering as long as they have, they need to keep a steady flow of scapegoats to keep the targets off themselves. We have a very unique situation in Edmonton. Not many orgs have a bunch of guys that are allowed to fail forever running the team that aren't the owners of the team.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 13:53]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724469 is a reply to message #724468 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:01

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7635
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:51

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:49

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:45

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:42

What I don't accept is the notion that Edmonton fans are different from any other market that really cares about "their" team. I do accept the idea that the media are glorified public relations for the team when it comes to picking on players.

I think Oilers fans very much follow the lead of the org and media here. Especially the tier 1 variety.

If the Oilers wanted to defend their guys, and pushed the media to maintain that narrative, it could have easily been pushed on the fans and carried pretty nicely.

The only time this org really pushed back hard was when the Fire Lowe stuff started.

But does that make Edmonton different from other markets? Normie fans tend to get in line behind what the team tells the media and when the media, especially the rights holder, says.

Nope, not different at all, I was agreeing. The fans here, like most people, grab onto the ideas that are repeated to them. Especially about the simple things in life like sports. Present them simple ideas of why things are going wrong and do it enough, it will take hold with the majority. And the Oilers org has been happy to sit back and let that stuff happen to their players. Probably because they are all doing the same thing, blaming individuals for the failings of the team. We've traded our share of good players on that premise.

What choice does the org have though? If they are all trying to save their jobs, and they have been lingering as long as they have, they need to keep a steady flow of scapegoats to keep the targets off themselves. We have a very unique situation in Edmonton. Not many orgs have a bunch of guys that are allowed to fail forever running the team that aren't the owners of the team.

Then I withdraw my comment.

To me, this is just another damn indictment of the Oilers organization failing to hold themselves accountable.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724473 is a reply to message #724469 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:55

Oscargasm
Messages: 5663
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:01

To me, this is just another damn indictment of the Oilers organization failing to hold themselves accountable.

It all started from the moment Lowe made a big spectacle of Hall wearing number 4. They, Lowe a co., essentially doomed us. Then they(Lowe and co.) "realized" it didn't work, they slithered into the shadowy corners while Bobby Nicks came in, won the Golden Flow, er uh, Golden Ticket in the McDavid Lottery followed by Pete and the Saskatchewan Provincial Coaching Team coming in.

Problem is, those responsible for the culture are still employed and still a part of hockey ops. It wasn't Taylor Hall's fault. It wasn't Jordan Eberle's fault. It wasn't Justin Schultz fault. Sure they were the "faces" of HOPE, but they were allowed to do what they did because of the culture Lowe endorsed. It is solely on Kevin Lowe, Craig MacTavish and ultimately Darryl Katz for the culture that was aloud to breed within the Oilers hockey team.

Media plays a large part in the fan mentality.

Bad timing on this though. Just when Hitch is getting the team playing as a TEAM and we experience an uptick on the MOGA metre.

Survivor CHAMP S52 | S66
OG's #MUSTWIN Scale
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Category 2 - Moderately Musty
Category 3 - Considerably Musty
Category 4 - Severely Musty
Category 5 - Incredibly Musty

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724489 is a reply to message #724463 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:46

Jakey
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2007
Location: Leduc

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Steve wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

DING DING DING....We Have a Winner!!!

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724490 is a reply to message #724489 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:52

Kr55
Messages: 9579
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

Jakey wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:46

Steve wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 13:22

Sounds more damning for Taylor Hall (and maybe Eberle) than the organization.

DING DING DING....We Have a Winner!!!

Hall is what he is. Great talent, but closer to a Kessel than a true leader. Kessel can't lead worth a crap, he's just into his own stuff, but he goes out there puts in his time and can dominate games with talent. He's a constant pain in the butt for coaches, but whatever, what did he end up doing, gave the pens the depth they needed for 2 straight cups. Leafs said the same stuff about him, loser, can't do anything when it matters (which never made sense because he was ppg in playoffs for the bruins and leafs). Ends up ppg in 2 straight playoff runs, playing a lot on a 3rd line that slaughtered teams.

The org put all their eggs into hoping Hall was going to be Messier 2.0 for us. Walk in, get the whole team on the same page and lead us to victory. They thought wrong, very wrong, and they sat back for a long time just letting this team turn into a disaster. They are so damn lucky they ended up with McDavid in the end.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 15:59]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724470 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:18

NetBOG
Messages: 2848
Registered: January 2006
Location: Parts Unknown

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Petry, Schultz, Hall, Eberle. All had YEARS to prove their worth to the Oilers. All were perennial losers. Not bad reporting, bad play. Over and over and over and over again.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724471 is a reply to message #724470 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:28

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7635
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

NetBOG wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:18

Petry, Schultz, Hall, Eberle. All had YEARS to prove their worth to the Oilers. All were perennial losers. Not bad reporting, bad play. Over and over and over and over again.

And the bad play was caused by...? I don't think they're root cause of the last 18 years of declining and miserable hockey.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724472 is a reply to message #724471 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

RDOilerfan
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Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724474 is a reply to message #724472 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7635
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724478 is a reply to message #724474 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

RDOilerfan
Messages: 3693
Registered: January 2016

3 Cups

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724480 is a reply to message #724478 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:02

Kr55
Messages: 9579
Registered: May 2002
Location: Edmonton

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

Who was telling them though? Greenhorn Eakins who didn't have a clue and was trying to implement idiotic systems that had no hope to work? And who seemed to only want to hold Yak accountable for whatever reason. It's extra weird to hear this considering the only guy Eakins seemed to focus on was Yak...did he think punishing Yak was gonna get the rest of the team in line? lol.

Was Ference gonna tell these kids what is what? The guy that is struggling to just keep up during game time is gonna be the alpha and beat all these kids into submission?

There was no one there. Management was busy hiding, making sure their jobs were secure and any anti-Lowe billboards were confiscated.

Scorched earth rebuilds clearly do not work. We were a great lesson for the rest of the league.

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

5 x $5,000,000

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724481 is a reply to message #724478 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:09

CrusaderPi
Messages: 7635
Registered: December 2003
Location: AB Highway 100

6 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

If I'm the middle manager (coach)? As the guy that has nominal control of the team, I reward the good behavior I want and correct the behavior I don't want. The problem is if your upper management executive (GM / POHO / Owner) doesn't allow you to do your job. Then you're sunk.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724483 is a reply to message #724478 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:14

Oscargasm
Messages: 5663
Registered: May 2009
Location: YEG

5 Cups

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:59

My question is how do you stop them? They are grown adults with lots of money even if they are 20 and in the hockey world considered kids. They have their own place. You can tell them not to do something but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want. How do you control that?

You don't enable it. You have the appropriate management upstairs and leadership in the locker room. You don't paint the picture as Taylor Hall as the new Mark Messier and he's going to bring us back to glory. You don't paint Schultz as the new Paul Coffey.

How do you not do that? Management. You don't employ fools from your glory days who are still clearly earning a pay check based on what they did back in the 80's. You don't collect human hockey cards.

FWIW: I enjoy Wayne being around in the capacity of an Ambassador. Other than that, Lowe and co. should not have been excused and definitely SHOULD NOT be part of the organization after all of this. Sure, Lowe isn't in Hockey Ops. A company I used to work for rebranded and reorganized after a pretty big loss in the Markets, the Director responsible for the mess was 'relieved' in the eyes of the media however the company simply changed his title and he remained in the exact role with the exact input he previously had.

In summary, you don't reward failure.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724479 is a reply to message #724474 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:59

McDavid97
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CrusaderPi wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:56

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

In the end, the kids were held responsible. They were all separated and traded, except for Nuge (a good WHL kid) and became a Hart Trophy winner, a two time Stanley Cup champion, and Eberle. The question now becomes, was anyone held responsible for creating the conditions that allowed that group of young Oilers to absolutely run amok.

Exactly this. Yes it's on the players for some of that stuff, but it's also on management / coaching to build the culture they want reflective of this organization.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724475 is a reply to message #724472 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

Kr55
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Location: Edmonton

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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

This is the NHL, and teams need young fast young talent to win now more than ever before. And many of these kids that become millionaires at 20 will act like 20 year old millionaires if you let them. I think a lot of teams have learned a valuable lesson from our botched rebuild. You need quality vets around, you need leadership in the coaching and management ranks. You can't just hand the keys to the team to kids, dump on all your vets and treat them like they are just lucky to be along for the ride, and expect everything will just work out.

It is very much like a work place. Toss a bunch of kids fresh out of school give them a fat salary right off the bat and put them in a spot with no experienced people that know what they're doing, or leaders in management. What do you end up with? Even if those kids are really smart, I think you end up with a bit of a mess on your hands in many cases.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 December 2018 15:00]

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724482 is a reply to message #724475 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:12

RDOilerfan
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

This is the NHL, and teams need young fast young talent to win now more than ever before. And many of these kids that become millionaires at 20 will act like 20 year old millionaires if you let them. I think a lot of teams have learned a valuable lesson from our botched rebuild. You need quality vets around, you need leadership in the coaching and management ranks. You can't just hand the keys to the team to kids, dump on all your vets and treat them like they are just lucky to be along for the ride, and expect everything will just work out.

It is very much like a work place. Toss a bunch of kids fresh out of school give them a fat salary right off the bat and put them in a spot with no experienced people that know what they're doing, or leaders in management. What do you end up with? Even if those kids are really smart, I think you end up with a bit of a mess on your hands in many cases.

I agree you need to have vets in place to show them the way BUT the young player has to be willing to listen too. Based on all the talk out there from players who were with him and even how when he went to New Jersey that first year, his new GM and coach had to sit Hall down and tell him he had to change, I do not get the sense that at the time Hall was willing to listen.

I think it probably came down to a combination of stubborn guys like Hall not willing to listen to anyone and wanting to do his thing but also not having the right vets in place. Everyone says you have to deal with young people these days way differently. You can't be too hard on them so if you have a bunch of old school vets telling these kids what to do, they won't listen.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724485 is a reply to message #724482 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:18

Kr55
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:12

Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:44

So basically from what I read from Ferences comments. Most of what he was talking about was there was a bunch of star young players who played the most minutes on the team who didn't put in the work or buy in. They did whatever the hell they wanted too. They would get taught and practice where to go and what to do year after year yet year after year they wouldn't do it. They would fly the zone early cheating for offense because in junior, they got away with it. They would let their man go free to the slot and not pick him up. When the coach preached get the puck in deep so we can change, they would try to go 1 on 3 because it worked in junior. Sounds about right from what I saw all those years.

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

This is the NHL, and teams need young fast young talent to win now more than ever before. And many of these kids that become millionaires at 20 will act like 20 year old millionaires if you let them. I think a lot of teams have learned a valuable lesson from our botched rebuild. You need quality vets around, you need leadership in the coaching and management ranks. You can't just hand the keys to the team to kids, dump on all your vets and treat them like they are just lucky to be along for the ride, and expect everything will just work out.

It is very much like a work place. Toss a bunch of kids fresh out of school give them a fat salary right off the bat and put them in a spot with no experienced people that know what they're doing, or leaders in management. What do you end up with? Even if those kids are really smart, I think you end up with a bit of a mess on your hands in many cases.

I agree you need to have vets in place to show them the way BUT the young player has to be willing to listen too. Based on all the talk out there from players who were with him and even how when he went to New Jersey that first year, his new GM and coach had to sit Hall down and tell him he had to change, I do not get the sense that at the time Hall was willing to listen.

I think it probably came down to a combination of stubborn guys like Hall not willing to listen to anyone and wanting to do his thing but also not having the right vets in place. Everyone says you have to deal with young people these days way differently. You can't be too hard on them so if you have a bunch of old school vets telling these kids what to do, they won't listen.

I would agree too there is a variation among young guys, and we may have been unlucky to get a group that were very prone to that Fresh Prince Will Smith attitude. Like, they are the team, everyone else just needs to not suck and waste our awesome work. How there was a group making fun of the rest of the team trying hard in practice, that's pretty bad if that was true. That's not just being cocky and acting like you are the team, but you are also actively trying to sabotage the contributions of the rest of the group by being a dick.

So, you have youngins like that. Then you get the McDavid's of the league that really are 100% about winning and trying to lead and being a quality teammate and person. If you swapped McDavid and Hall in the order of draft picks we get, this all probably would have played out differently, but still probably ultimately we suck because management has no clue :)

"We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
- Lowe, 2013

"Next year I would forecast as another developmental year"
- MacT, 2015

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724476 is a reply to message #724472 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 14:58

Oscargasm
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:44

Then you read in hear and it's the bosses fault they didn't do it. Doesn't matter if you told them/showed them what to do 100 times and they chose not to do it, it's the coaches fault. Sounds kind of like the work place in general for the current crop of young people. It's always someone else's fault or responsibility, never theirs.

They were clearly given the green light to do as they wish and not play a mature game. There was no accountability directed in the appropriate direction as anyone who spoke out about the culture was shunned by Lowe and co. via Propaganda Minister Stauffer.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724484 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:18

CrudeRemarks
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This article would've meant something two years ago. Ference hasn't played in a long time. No surprise he defends Eakins, they were push up and smoothie buddies. Guy probably hates donuts as well. Besides isn't it the captain's job to set the team attitude? I heard Pronger came in and basically did exactly that and they came 1 game short of a Cup win.

All this tells me is Ference has a weak personality. And why does it come out now? Does he have a book in the works?

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you can get a lottery pick.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724487 is a reply to message #724484 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:21

Oscargasm
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 16:18

All this tells me is Ference has a weak personality. And why does it come out now? Does he have a book in the works?

Would uh... would you buy and read it?

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724548 is a reply to message #724484 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 10:07

jerekybeef
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CrudeRemarks wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 14:18

This article would've meant something two years ago. Ference hasn't played in a long time. No surprise he defends Eakins, they were push up and smoothie buddies. Guy probably hates donuts as well. Besides isn't it the captain's job to set the team attitude? I heard Pronger came in and basically did exactly that and they came 1 game short of a Cup win.

All this tells me is Ference has a weak personality. And why does it come out now? Does he have a book in the works?

This team has lacked leadership and responsibility from the players, to the coach, right up to the owner for at least a decade. The heart and soul guys of the early 2000’s and late 90’s made up for their lack of talent with a commitment to at least give a crap and try. The responsibility lie with every member or the organization. Management never provided the right amount of actual leadership to the young guys who were brought in and hailed as saviours. The young guys didn’t live up to their saviour status because once they signed the contracts it was the end of the road. They relied on their considerable talent to just show up and thought that was enough.

I don’t think anyone can honestly say that it’s one sided fault or the other. The whole organization is a joke from the owner down to the farm clubs. Everyone wants to blame everyone else without actually accepting responsibility that although this is a game, they are all being paid a lot of money to perform and it’s a job.

Management doesn’t accept responsibility and blames the players, the weather, the zodiac signs, for their own short comings. Players blame the ‘system’ (or lack thereof) for the losses. Everyone is equally culpable in this tire fire. Hopefully now they have an experienced coach with an actual system and a group of players that seems willing to buy in, they might be able to function as a colllective rather then a group of individuals.

Players are professionals and need to act accordingly. What proportion of the entire workforce parties non-stop and basically tells their employer to pound sand because they need the player more then the player needs the organization? What organization gives the keys to new grads and hopes to sustain itself long term without providing structure and guidance? The Oilers apparently.

"Make the Oilers great again" - Donny Tramp

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724568 is a reply to message #724548 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 11:14

Adam
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On cue, Mark Spector shows up with an article praising Oilers management.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mikko-koskinen-gamble-su ccess-story-oilers-peter-chiarelli/

Sure, it was a massive risk paying a 30 year old with no track record WAAAAY more than similar players were getting and true, it's really early and this could be just a hot run over a small sample size, but the Oilers management is taking heat, so the lapdogs have to talk up some minor success to try to distract from the overwhelming failures...

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724570 is a reply to message #724568 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 11:51

Magnum
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Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:14

On cue, Mark Spector shows up with an article praising Oilers management.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mikko-koskinen-gamble-su ccess-story-oilers-peter-chiarelli/

Sure, it was a massive risk paying a 30 year old with no track record WAAAAY more than similar players were getting and true, it's really early and this could be just a hot run over a small sample size, but the Oilers management is taking heat, so the lapdogs have to talk up some minor success to try to distract from the overwhelming failures...

I'm pretty sure Pete and Spec are friends.

They really have to be.

2015/2016 - This Kool-Aid tastes like McDavid flavoured Drain-O.
2016/2017 - This Kool-Aid is starting to taste like juice.
2017/2018 - I'm drinking this Kool-Aid, in hopes that it's Drain-O.
2018/2019 - Another round of Drain-O, good sir!

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724571 is a reply to message #724570 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 12:05

CrusaderPi
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Magnum wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:51

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:14

On cue, Mark Spector shows up with an article praising Oilers management.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mikko-koskinen-gamble-su ccess-story-oilers-peter-chiarelli/

Sure, it was a massive risk paying a 30 year old with no track record WAAAAY more than similar players were getting and true, it's really early and this could be just a hot run over a small sample size, but the Oilers management is taking heat, so the lapdogs have to talk up some minor success to try to distract from the overwhelming failures...

I'm pretty sure Pete and Spec are friends.

They really have to be.

I'm not sure what the implication is here. Are you dog whistling Adam? Why would a member of the mainstream media publish anything in an opinion piece, but what they absolutely believe to be the truth? Chiarelli signed Koskinen and hired Hitchcock, both are obviously good moves. Despite what the haters, like you, are saying the payoff is evident.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724580 is a reply to message #724571 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 17:33

Adam
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CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 12:05

Magnum wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:51

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:14

On cue, Mark Spector shows up with an article praising Oilers management.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mikko-koskinen-gamble-su ccess-story-oilers-peter-chiarelli/

Sure, it was a massive risk paying a 30 year old with no track record WAAAAY more than similar players were getting and true, it's really early and this could be just a hot run over a small sample size, but the Oilers management is taking heat, so the lapdogs have to talk up some minor success to try to distract from the overwhelming failures...

I'm pretty sure Pete and Spec are friends.

They really have to be.

I'm not sure what the implication is here. Are you dog whistling Adam? Why would a member of the mainstream media publish anything in an opinion piece, but what they absolutely believe to be the truth? Chiarelli signed Koskinen and hired Hitchcock, both are obviously good moves. Despite what the haters, like you, are saying the payoff is evident.

I think they're trying to gaslight us!

If the team scrapes in to the playoffs in the worst division in hockey with the best player in the world on the team, I expect that they'll try to convince us that they really DON'T need any more changes to management! Pete's plan is working to perfection!!! Maybe next year we can be the first wild card instead of the second wild card! It's all about constant progress (other than when you go backwards...)

"Thinking that a bad team's best players are the reason the team is bad is the "Tambellini re-signing Lennart Petrell" of sports opinions." @Woodguy55
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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724582 is a reply to message #724580 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 17:43

CrusaderPi
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Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:33

CrusaderPi wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 12:05

Magnum wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:51

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 11:14

On cue, Mark Spector shows up with an article praising Oilers management.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mikko-koskinen-gamble-su ccess-story-oilers-peter-chiarelli/

Sure, it was a massive risk paying a 30 year old with no track record WAAAAY more than similar players were getting and true, it's really early and this could be just a hot run over a small sample size, but the Oilers management is taking heat, so the lapdogs have to talk up some minor success to try to distract from the overwhelming failures...

I'm pretty sure Pete and Spec are friends.

They really have to be.

I'm not sure what the implication is here. Are you dog whistling Adam? Why would a member of the mainstream media publish anything in an opinion piece, but what they absolutely believe to be the truth? Chiarelli signed Koskinen and hired Hitchcock, both are obviously good moves. Despite what the haters, like you, are saying the payoff is evident.

I think they're trying to gaslight us!

If the team scrapes in to the playoffs in the worst division in hockey with the best player in the world on the team, I expect that they'll try to convince us that they really DON'T need any more changes to management! Pete's plan is working to perfection!!! Maybe next year we can be the first wild card instead of the second wild card! It's all about constant progress (other than when you go backwards...)

That sounds about right. McDavid and just a little bit of competence is enough for chia to keep his job. He’s damn lucky (or smart) that Koskinen bet has paid off so far.

Please do not feed the bears. Feeding the bears creates a dependent population unable to survive on their own. Bears.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724585 is a reply to message #724580 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 18:38

NetBOG
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Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:33

............. the worst division in hockey ..........

Not that I want to derail this thread, but there is little evidence this is the case. I understand that a lot of eastern based writers just assume this is true, because they don't bother or care to watch the west coast teams, and that leads to a lot of people just assuming its true.

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724588 is a reply to message #724585 ]	Tue, 11 December 2018 18:59

Goose
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NetBOG wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:38

Adam wrote on Tue, 11 December 2018 17:33

............. the worst division in hockey ..........

Not that I want to derail this thread, but there is little evidence this is the case. I understand that a lot of eastern based writers just assume this is true, because they don't bother or care to watch the west coast teams, and that leads to a lot of people just assuming its true.

At least from what I've seen this is generally based on the fact that the Pacific division has the worst combined goal differential of any division. It used to be much worse and it's tightened up more due to the Metropolitan division faltering than the Pacific really improving. It's not a perfect metric but I think it's a reasonable proxy for divisional strength.

Atlantic +39
Central +18
Metropolitan -27
Pacific -30

Oilers Goal Differential
17/18: 234 GF / 263 GA (-29)
18/19: 232 GF / 274 GA (-42)
19/20 (82 game pace): 257 GF / 254 GA (+3) in 64 games
2021 (82 game pace):269 GF / 235 GA (+34) after 38 games

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724486 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:20

K.McC#24
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Kr55 wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 12:52

Starts ~33:00 in

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/31-thoughts-podcast/dec-10 -2018-andrew-ference/

Summary stolen from a poster on hf

- Said players don't do well here because they're too afraid to make mistakes (and thus grow their game) because the media and fans will attack them and drive them out. Brought up Schultz and Petry as examples.
- He was not too happy with the Oilers due to the drastic difference in work ethic and commitment
- Other players who came from contenders/Stanley Cup teams were also frustrated by the lack of effort from the team
- Says Eakins was a good coach ("unfairly treated", "was he perfect? no") that demanded good work ethic but there was a group of players who refused to put any effort into practices. They were "too cool" to practice and were all talk when it came to winning. These players also had derogatory terms for teammates who tried to hard during practice.
- This group of players were all talk (in front of the media about wanting to win) and were more interested in living the partying lifestyle.
- Respect was given out based on "how well your toedrag was" and so it was hard getting much respect as a #4-5 defencemen.

Good coaches can communicate with a broad spectrum of personalities and command respect. Didn't happen for Eakins. Ference took his money and didn't deliver when he was healthy. Guys like Ference were brought in to to provide leadership, Ference was probably more concerned with the team's sustainability and carbon footprint. The rest of this was probably true or mostly true but this is just sucky gossip on Ference's part on my opinion....interesting dishing but yeah....

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724488 is a reply to message #724459 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 15:40

WhoreableGuy
Messages: 590
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Ex-Oiler who did nothing for the team bashes the Organization, news at 11.

"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724491 is a reply to message #724488 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 16:40

JPro
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WhoreableGuy wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:40

Ex-Oiler who did nothing for the team bashes the Organization, news at 11.

Yeah lets stick our head in the sand and pretend this doesn't happen every year.

I think it's time to bring the Lowe billboards back. I'm in for $20!

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Re: Ference paints ugly picture of time with Oilers [message #724492 is a reply to message #724491 ]	Mon, 10 December 2018 16:47

WhoreableGuy
Messages: 590
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JPro wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 16:40

WhoreableGuy wrote on Mon, 10 December 2018 15:40

Ex-Oiler who did nothing for the team bashes the Organization, news at 11.

Yeah lets stick our head in the sand and pretend this doesn't happen every year.

I think it's time to bring the Lowe billboards back. I'm in for $20!

Look at the names though...Scrivens...Pakarinen? I think the only player I remember that was good for the Oilers and bashed was Sheldon Souray. All the other guys were players that were given all the opportunity to played and didn't do squat.

"Bah Gawd! Would somebody stop the damn draft!"

- Jim Ross calling the NHL Draft Lotto 2015 as the Oilers win

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