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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697602 is a reply to message #697601 ]
Tue, 11 July 2017 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ragnarok73  is currently offline Ragnarok73
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Kr55 wrote on Tue, 11 July 2017 17:36

Every time I watch it I feel I have a greater appreciation of where we ended up in the present. I also realize more and more as I get older how much of an amateur operation the Oilers were back then. It's really quite pitiful to watch how these guys were bumbling around and the things they valued and chose to focus on. Probably a light year behind the curve of any successful org, even back then.

And just the level of self satisfaction carried by so many of these guys, after finishing friggin last in the NHL 2 years in a row, lol. I feel there are some real life lessons to be gained by watching this.

It's far too soon still for me to be looking at this train wreck from the past....



"There's no greater springboard to development than failure." - Craig MacTavish, April 13/15.

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"Sabres think the suck is their ally? They merely adopted the suck. The Oilers were born in it...molded by it."

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697605 is a reply to message #697602 ]
Tue, 11 July 2017 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kr55  is currently offline Kr55
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Ragnarok73 wrote on Tue, 11 July 2017 19:48

Kr55 wrote on Tue, 11 July 2017 17:36

Every time I watch it I feel I have a greater appreciation of where we ended up in the present. I also realize more and more as I get older how much of an amateur operation the Oilers were back then. It's really quite pitiful to watch how these guys were bumbling around and the things they valued and chose to focus on. Probably a light year behind the curve of any successful org, even back then.

And just the level of self satisfaction carried by so many of these guys, after finishing friggin last in the NHL 2 years in a row, lol. I feel there are some real life lessons to be gained by watching this.

It's far too soon still for me to be looking at this train wreck from the past....





"The Edmonton Oilers are not where they should be right now and that is unacceptable. We need to get better immediately. That starts today"
-Kevin Lowe, April 2013


"Next year (15/16) I would forecast as another developmental year"
- #2, April 2015

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697490 is a reply to message #697477 ]
Fri, 07 July 2017 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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mightyreasoner wrote on Fri, 07 July 2017 13:12


Apparently there was a push to claim him when he was on waivers with Carolina, but the Oil opted not to and traded for Jerred Smithson instead.



I'd still like to know what the hell the Oilers brass thought they were doing that trade deadline. They're sitting in a playoff spot, they had to know that Hemsky's playing with a broken foot. They have been on a bit of a roll, and look like they might be ready to finally make the jump...Hall's been incredible. Gagner's putting up almost a point per game. Dubnyk's looking like the real deal. What can the Oilers pull out of their hat at the trade deadline to push us over the edge...?

Jerrod Smithson.

He of the 35-game, 2-3-5 season to that point. Five years removed from his career high of 16 points. But he did win lots of faceoffs...for the 10 minutes a night that his coach trusted him to be on the ice anyhow.

Unsurprisingly, it didn't provide the lift the team needed. And so instead the team got the GM/Coach combo it deserved...



"This team needs an enema!"
#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697476 is a reply to message #697442 ]
Fri, 07 July 2017 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mightyreasoner  is currently offline mightyreasoner
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This is the kind of signing good teams make. Wait until the hype of UFA is over and get a short-term bet on a value deal. Won't make me buy a jersey like Jagr or Iginla would, but there's really nothing to dislike about this deal. It makes them better in every way.

I too am of the opinion that a little more AHL time wouldn't be the worst for Puljujarvi and a Jagr-type winger wouldn't be the worst still. But I think the Oilers see Puljujarvi here, and I think, barring a trade that opens up some space, this is likely the Oilers forwards moving forward:

Maroon / McDavid / Strome
Lucic / Draisaitl / Puljujarvi
Jokinen / RNH / Slepyshev
Caggiula / Letestu / Kassian

And then whichever two of Pakarinen, Rattie, and Khaira impress most in camp will be in the PB.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697487 is a reply to message #697476 ]
Fri, 07 July 2017 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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I think it's far more likely to start this way



Maroon / McDavid / Drai
Lucic / RNH/Jokinen / Puljujarvi
Strome / Jokinen/RNH / Slepyshev
Caggiula / Letestu / Kassian



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697491 is a reply to message #697487 ]
Fri, 07 July 2017 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K.McC#24  is currently offline K.McC#24
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Dragon_Matt wrote on Fri, 07 July 2017 15:12

I think it's far more likely to start this way



Maroon / McDavid / Drai
Lucic / RNH/Jokinen / Puljujarvi
Strome / Jokinen/RNH / Slepyshev
Caggiula / Letestu / Kassian


I remember discussions in the dark era, where some of us were up in arms about how coke machines were playing 5 min/night on the 4th line. My contention, given the roster at the time, was that 'skilled' 4th liners on the Oilers are called '3rd liners'. Now, with a bit of depth higher in the lineup, we see the possibility of some pretty good players getting decent minutes on the 4th line. Funny how McDavid and some competence in the executive can raise the bar.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697499 is a reply to message #697442 ]
Fri, 07 July 2017 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Suomalainen  is currently offline Suomalainen
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I approve.


97.

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697501 is a reply to message #697442 ]
Fri, 07 July 2017 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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Nice to see a move this summer where you aren't trying to find reasons to justify it.

This makes us better and that's all that counts. Anything above 30 points is gravy.



When Peter Chiarelli is fired, Kevin Lowe will be involved in finding a replacement. Fire them all. Bring us REAL change.

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697503 is a reply to message #697501 ]
Sat, 08 July 2017 01:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Babaganoosh  is currently offline Babaganoosh
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Yes yes yes. If not a Eberle a player that can play that role. Proven history. Shootout specialist. What's not to like about this?


" If you have anything good to say, say it off!"

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697617 is a reply to message #697503 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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As I have come to digest this signing more, I liked it in the beginning, I like it eve more now. I heard his interview with Stauffer yesterday. #1 sounds like a great guy. By his own description and I agree with him, he can basically play all over the place and do almost anything. He's got enough skill and has shown he can produce and given who he's played with in the past, he can be in the Oilers top 6. He can go on a 3rd line and do well. He's got a ton of experience. He can play both special teams, he can win faceoffs. He owns the team that Puljujarvi played on before he was drafted, he skates with Puljujarvi in the offseason, he's Finnish so he can help JP further adjust. JP was barely 18, didn't speak English and moved across the world. I can't imagine how hard and how much of an adjustment that would be for him. Kids his age struggle with moving from home to the big City a few hours away to go to school, try moving across the world and not being able to understand anyone. I think the Oilers will want JP to be on the team full time at some point this season so having Jokinen on the team to help is massive.

So great signing. I think it helps offset the offense that the Oilers might have lost out on with the Strome for Eberle trade. Between Strome and Jokinen, I would think they would more than cover what Eberle may have put up. Their combined salaries are 2.4 mill cheaper than Eberle AND they both do more things and bring more versatility to the line up.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697621 is a reply to message #697617 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 07:31


So great signing. I think it helps offset the offense that the Oilers might have lost out on with the Strome for Eberle trade. Between Strome and Jokinen, I would think they would more than cover what Eberle may have put up. Their combined salaries are 2.4 mill cheaper than Eberle AND they both do more things and bring more versatility to the line up.


Sorry, I don't think it works that way.

First, I don't think there's any evidence that Strome, "does more things than Eberle". He's not overly physical, he doesn't kill penalties, he's not great defensively, he's an average skater, he's not as good of a powerplay player. And he scores at a much lower rate. I guess you could say that Strome can play centre or wing, but he's not been super effective at either.

By the above logic, we should trade McDavid for Eric Staal and then sign Vanek to a cheap one-year deal and be better off. Staal is better at faceoffs than McDavid, he plays pp and pk, and he's bigger. And him and Vanek should be able to combine to score more points than McDavid, and you can probably get Vanek for cheap on a one-year deal, so you save money relative to McDavid's next contract.

Jokinen was signed to replace Pouliot. And I agree he is an upgrade, although I'm still not convinced that buying out Pouliot this year was the correct move.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697625 is a reply to message #697621 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TeemaJeema  is currently offline TeemaJeema
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Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 09:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 07:31


So great signing. I think it helps offset the offense that the Oilers might have lost out on with the Strome for Eberle trade. Between Strome and Jokinen, I would think they would more than cover what Eberle may have put up. Their combined salaries are 2.4 mill cheaper than Eberle AND they both do more things and bring more versatility to the line up.


Sorry, I don't think it works that way.

First, I don't think there's any evidence that Strome, "does more things than Eberle". He's not overly physical, he doesn't kill penalties, he's not great defensively, he's an average skater, he's not as good of a powerplay player. And he scores at a much lower rate. I guess you could say that Strome can play centre or wing, but he's not been super effective at either.

By the above logic, we should trade McDavid for Eric Staal and then sign Vanek to a cheap one-year deal and be better off. Staal is better at faceoffs than McDavid, he plays pp and pk, and he's bigger. And him and Vanek should be able to combine to score more points than McDavid, and you can probably get Vanek for cheap on a one-year deal, so you save money relative to McDavid's next contract.

Jokinen was signed to replace Pouliot. And I agree he is an upgrade, although I'm still not convinced that buying out Pouliot this year was the correct move.



In bold, you just described Eberle's game.

All RDOF is saying is that with these 2 players, you should more than make up for Eberle's point production and provide added flexibility in the lineup with the positions they play. Which is not wrong.

And the 2nd paragraph is such an exaggerated argument, I don't think that thought has crossed anyone's mind.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697627 is a reply to message #697625 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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TeemaJeema wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 10:43

Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 09:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 07:31


So great signing. I think it helps offset the offense that the Oilers might have lost out on with the Strome for Eberle trade. Between Strome and Jokinen, I would think they would more than cover what Eberle may have put up. Their combined salaries are 2.4 mill cheaper than Eberle AND they both do more things and bring more versatility to the line up.


Sorry, I don't think it works that way.

First, I don't think there's any evidence that Strome, "does more things than Eberle". He's not overly physical, he doesn't kill penalties, he's not great defensively, he's an average skater, he's not as good of a powerplay player. And he scores at a much lower rate. I guess you could say that Strome can play centre or wing, but he's not been super effective at either.

By the above logic, we should trade McDavid for Eric Staal and then sign Vanek to a cheap one-year deal and be better off. Staal is better at faceoffs than McDavid, he plays pp and pk, and he's bigger. And him and Vanek should be able to combine to score more points than McDavid, and you can probably get Vanek for cheap on a one-year deal, so you save money relative to McDavid's next contract.

Jokinen was signed to replace Pouliot. And I agree he is an upgrade, although I'm still not convinced that buying out Pouliot this year was the correct move.



In bold, you just described Eberle's game.

All RDOF is saying is that with these 2 players, you should more than make up for Eberle's point production and provide added flexibility in the lineup with the positions they play. Which is not wrong.

And the 2nd paragraph is such an exaggerated argument, I don't think that thought has crossed anyone's mind.


100% right.

For the record, Eberle SUCKED on the Oilers PP last year. He was so bad, the Oilers replaced Eberle with their 4th line center. You have the best player in the world, the reining Art Ross, Lindsey and Hart winner and a 6 mill, supposed goal scoring winger can't figure out that all he has to do is stand in a spot, wait for a pass and shoot the puck quickly but a 4th line center could figure that out. I don't know a ton about Strome but neither does Goose as we both haven't seen him play a ton. All there is to look at is past stats. Eberle is way older, been in the league way longer and has better stats because of it. But we have NO CLUE what will happen with Strome. Maybe Strome will play with McDavid and they will click like Eberle couldn't and he will explode. We don't know that. If Eberle stayed with the Oilers, maybe he would have had a worse year, we don't know that. So to make a direct statement and say with such certainty that for the Oilers, Eberle would be better this coming season than Strome I think is a ridiculous statement. We have no clue how either players are going to play, we have no clue what roles each players will play, we have no clue that maybe in McLellan's system, a Strome will excel more than a Eberle.

So like I said and you said, I believe there is a very good chance that the combination of the 2 players will easily match or surpass Eberle's production. I look at Eberle's career numbers and I have a hard time believing that he is going to score more than high 20's in goals and just over 60 pts. I say that because before last season, that is what he was doing for several years in a row so that to me says that is his high range. To match that, I don't think it is a stretch for each player to score 13-14 goals and 30+ pts a piece to equal that. Jokinen in a bad year last year had 11 goals, 28 pts in 69 games playing on a team when the majority of their best offensive players were hurt. Is it a stretch for him to add 3+ more goals 5-10 more points while killing penalties, winning some faceoffs and being better defensively? I don't think so. Strome had 13 goals and 30 pts. Is it a stretch for him to score a few more goals and get more points than 30 while playing center/wing. I don't think so. Plus the ability of both guys to play center or wing, plus be a top 9 forward allows the coach to do more with his lines than Eberle who can ONLY play right wing and realistically ONLY play in a top 6 due to his contract and his style of play. Plus the 2.4 less in contract makes it a win for me.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697628 is a reply to message #697627 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CrusaderPi  is currently offline CrusaderPi
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Interesting question. Will Jokinen + Strome = Eberle next season? Let's look at the past.

2016-17: 28+30=58 > 51
2015-16: 60+28=88 > 47
2014-15: 44+50=94 > 63

There's your proof.



Your reigning, defending, undisputed, and two time NHL Survivor Champion!

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697630 is a reply to message #697628 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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CrusaderPi wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 11:35

Interesting question. Will Jokinen + Strome = Eberle next season? Let's look at the past.

2016-17: 28+30=58 > 51
2015-16: 60+28=88 > 47
2014-15: 44+50=94 > 63

There's your proof.

Thanks for looking into that. Like I said. It wouldn't shock me to see Eberle get back to the 14-15 numbers. But I don't see him scoring much passed that, his career numbers don't support that. But in saying that, I don't think it will be too hard for both Strome and Jokinen to outscore whatever he does put up. To equal the 14-15 season, that's barely 30 pts a piece. Plus they both can play some center, both play up and down the lines and are 2.4 mill cheaper.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697647 is a reply to message #697628 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smyth260  is currently offline smyth260
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This just doesn't really have any value though.

The question should be closer to something like:

Will Strome and Jokinen produce more than Eberle AND Pouliot.



When Peter Chiarelli is fired, Kevin Lowe will be involved in finding a replacement. Fire them all. Bring us REAL change.

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697648 is a reply to message #697647 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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smyth260 wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 13:26

This just doesn't really have any value though.

The question should be closer to something like:

Will Strome and Jokinen produce more than Eberle AND Pouliot.


Or Eberle and Jokinen



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697633 is a reply to message #697627 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 10:24


For the record, Eberle SUCKED on the Oilers PP last year. He was so bad, the Oilers replaced Eberle with their 4th line center. You have the best player in the world, the reining Art Ross, Lindsey and Hart winner and a 6 mill, supposed goal scoring winger can't figure out that all he has to do is stand in a spot, wait for a pass and shoot the puck quickly but a 4th line center could figure that out.


Yes, he sucked so bad that he was 82nd in the league in PP pts/60 and 4th on the Oilers (and the most productive member of the Oilers 2nd unit), with 4.59pts/60. Strome was 186th at 2.72pts/60.

I don't claim to be an expert in PP systems, so I don't know why Eberle didn't work with McDavid/Draisaitl. But it's more than a bit of a reach to take that and pretend that he hasn't been productive on the powerplay. And you keep bringing up Letestu. To his credit, he was dynamite on the powerplay last year. He had the 15th most pp goals in the entire NHL. It worked. Are you really suggesting that you could just plug in any 4th liner and they would produce like that with McDavid, and Eberle is just too stupid or lazy to figure it out? That's the argument?

Finally, you keep suggesting that I am speaking as if I know what is going to happen next year. I'm fully aware that I don't know what is going to happen with 100% certainty. But I think it makes way more sense to base my expectations off of historical performance than wishes and hopes that Strome suddenly almost doubles his production from the past 2 years.

[Updated on: Wed, 12 July 2017 12:24]


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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697637 is a reply to message #697633 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PlusOne  is currently offline PlusOne
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Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 12:22

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 10:24


For the record, Eberle SUCKED on the Oilers PP last year. He was so bad, the Oilers replaced Eberle with their 4th line center. You have the best player in the world, the reining Art Ross, Lindsey and Hart winner and a 6 mill, supposed goal scoring winger can't figure out that all he has to do is stand in a spot, wait for a pass and shoot the puck quickly but a 4th line center could figure that out.


Yes, he sucked so bad that he was 82nd in the league in PP pts/60 and 4th on the Oilers (and the most productive member of the Oilers 2nd unit), with 4.59pts/60. Strome was 186th at 2.72pts/60.

I don't claim to be an expert in PP systems, so I don't know why Eberle didn't work with McDavid/Draisaitl. But it's more than a bit of a reach to take that and pretend that he hasn't been productive on the powerplay. And you keep bringing up Letestu. To his credit, he was dynamite on the powerplay last year. He had the 15th most pp goals in the entire NHL. It worked. Are you really suggesting that you could just plug in any 4th liner and they would produce like that with McDavid, and Eberle is just too stupid or lazy to figure it out? That's the argument?

Finally, you keep suggesting that I am speaking as if I know what is going to happen next year. I'm fully aware that I don't know what is going to happen with 100% certainty. But I think it makes way more sense to base my expectations off of historical performance than wishes and hopes that Strome suddenly almost doubles his production from the past 2 years.


I see where RDOF is coming from. I also see where Goose is coming from on this.

I think the underlying problem is that both of keep tying these moves together. My thoughts on the Eberle/Strome trade match up with many in that I think we lost that trade.
As far as Jokinen goes, I love the move for many if not all of the same reasons that RDOF has laid out.

While the end result of the team being better can be debated, it doesnt come to Jokinen+Strome being greater than Eberle.
Much like last year I hated the idea that the Hall trade had to be measured up as Larsson + Lucic being better than Hall. In the end I still think we should have got more for Hall. I liked Lucic but still hope for better out of him and am worried about him long term.

The Eberle deal is done and I still dont like it but I do like the flexibility that Strome and Jokinen bring to the lineup given our depth at wing is still mostly terrible.

I still think overall the forward group is worse than last year overall (barring the probability that the returning group and the acquisitions improve). I would still like to see one more Jokinen type signing to give some more options/depth but there is time for that.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697631 is a reply to message #697625 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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TeemaJeema wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 09:43

Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 09:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 07:31


So great signing. I think it helps offset the offense that the Oilers might have lost out on with the Strome for Eberle trade. Between Strome and Jokinen, I would think they would more than cover what Eberle may have put up. Their combined salaries are 2.4 mill cheaper than Eberle AND they both do more things and bring more versatility to the line up.


Sorry, I don't think it works that way.

First, I don't think there's any evidence that Strome, "does more things than Eberle". He's not overly physical, he doesn't kill penalties, he's not great defensively, he's an average skater, he's not as good of a powerplay player. And he scores at a much lower rate. I guess you could say that Strome can play centre or wing, but he's not been super effective at either.

By the above logic, we should trade McDavid for Eric Staal and then sign Vanek to a cheap one-year deal and be better off. Staal is better at faceoffs than McDavid, he plays pp and pk, and he's bigger. And him and Vanek should be able to combine to score more points than McDavid, and you can probably get Vanek for cheap on a one-year deal, so you save money relative to McDavid's next contract.

Jokinen was signed to replace Pouliot. And I agree he is an upgrade, although I'm still not convinced that buying out Pouliot this year was the correct move.



In bold, you just described Eberle's game.

All RDOF is saying is that with these 2 players, you should more than make up for Eberle's point production and provide added flexibility in the lineup with the positions they play. Which is not wrong.

And the 2nd paragraph is such an exaggerated argument, I don't think that thought has crossed anyone's mind.



Yes, exactly. Strome is like Eberle, just worse at the thing that matters most, scoring points.

I understand what RDOF is saying. My point is that's not how it works. You can't take two players (you don't like my McDavid example, that's fine, I admit it was intentionally hyperbolic to make a point), and combine them and say that they can replace the production of one player and say you're going to come out ahead. Rosters are finite, so if you're adding in two players, you have to, by definition, replace the production of two players.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697634 is a reply to message #697631 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 12:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
7mf2  is currently offline 7mf2
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It also can't be forgotten that Jokinen coming here had nothing to do with Eberle leaving. I am far more concerned if the Strome-Jokinen duo will provide more than the Eberle-Jokinen paring would have.

Obviously when we are talking about future production there are no certainties but as Adam showed with this $100 bet offer there are very few people here (if any) that think Strome has a good chance of bettering Eberle's production this season.

Jokinen will do whatever he does and I think it was a very good signing but all evidence shows that we lost the Eberle trade in terms of point production. I am as hopeful and even optimistic about next season as anyone but it doesn't mean that I (and others) can't be critical.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697635 is a reply to message #697631 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 12:03

TeemaJeema wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 09:43

Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 09:51

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 07:31


So great signing. I think it helps offset the offense that the Oilers might have lost out on with the Strome for Eberle trade. Between Strome and Jokinen, I would think they would more than cover what Eberle may have put up. Their combined salaries are 2.4 mill cheaper than Eberle AND they both do more things and bring more versatility to the line up.


Sorry, I don't think it works that way.

First, I don't think there's any evidence that Strome, "does more things than Eberle". He's not overly physical, he doesn't kill penalties, he's not great defensively, he's an average skater, he's not as good of a powerplay player. And he scores at a much lower rate. I guess you could say that Strome can play centre or wing, but he's not been super effective at either.

By the above logic, we should trade McDavid for Eric Staal and then sign Vanek to a cheap one-year deal and be better off. Staal is better at faceoffs than McDavid, he plays pp and pk, and he's bigger. And him and Vanek should be able to combine to score more points than McDavid, and you can probably get Vanek for cheap on a one-year deal, so you save money relative to McDavid's next contract.

Jokinen was signed to replace Pouliot. And I agree he is an upgrade, although I'm still not convinced that buying out Pouliot this year was the correct move.



In bold, you just described Eberle's game.

All RDOF is saying is that with these 2 players, you should more than make up for Eberle's point production and provide added flexibility in the lineup with the positions they play. Which is not wrong.

And the 2nd paragraph is such an exaggerated argument, I don't think that thought has crossed anyone's mind.



Yes, exactly. Strome is like Eberle, just worse at the thing that matters most, scoring points.

I understand what RDOF is saying. My point is that's not how it works. .


Why can't you? Instead of paying one guy 6 mill to score you 60 points and do nothing else for your team in any other way, they are paying 2 guys 2.4 mill less and unless something happens, they are most likely going to get way more points out of those 2 than Eberle by himself can score. Plus you get the versatility of those 2 playing wing AND center. Jokinen is even decent at faceoffs, a weak point for the Oilers. I know these days some think winning faceoffs isn't that important but if you can win more faceoffs, it sure isn't a bad thing. Even for the stats guys, Jokinen is supposed to a good possession player. They even get more forward scoring depth with 2 players rather than one.

So unless by some miracle, Eberle dramatically scores WAY more than his career average, the Oilers get more scoring, more forward depth, more versatility for their lines as both can play center or wing, more centers should injury happen, more size because both are bigger than Eberle, better skating because Eberle is a worse skater than both, they get help in the faceoff dot and they do it all for 2.4 mill less than Eberle.

To go further. For what it would have cost the Oilers for Eberle and his 6 mill, they cover the cost of Strome, Jokinen, Kassian (5.55) plus half of Gryba's salary. So 3.5 players for the cost of 1 guy. How is this not a win?

[Updated on: Wed, 12 July 2017 12:32]


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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697641 is a reply to message #697635 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 11:28


Why can't you?


Because you have a limited number of spots on your roster. You can't use two players to replace one, because by adding in the production from 2 players, you're eliminating the production of 2 players.

Again, to take this to the extreme, when McDavid is making $12M, I'm sure you would be able to find 6 guys making less than $12M combined that can outscore McDavid. But it doesn't make any sense to do that.

To bring it back to reality, I would much rather have Eberle/Jokinen than Strome/Jokinen and the Oilers have the cap space to have done that. Not sure we'll ever agree on that point though icon_wink



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697649 is a reply to message #697641 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 12:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 11:28


Why can't you?


Because you have a limited number of spots on your roster. You can't use two players to replace one, because by adding in the production from 2 players, you're eliminating the production of 2 players.

Again, to take this to the extreme, when McDavid is making $12M, I'm sure you would be able to find 6 guys making less than $12M combined that can outscore McDavid. But it doesn't make any sense to do that.

To bring it back to reality, I would much rather have Eberle/Jokinen than Strome/Jokinen and the Oilers have the cap space to have done that. Not sure we'll ever agree on that point though icon_wink


We won't ever agree. Because like I have said many times, the Oilers in the near future will need to get rid of cap space. Even though I think McDavid could have gotten more, 12.5 mill is a hell of a lot of money to have to come up with after next season. Holding on to Eberle for one more season in my opinion would have been stupid. He would not have been playing a prominent role on the team, if someone thinks other wise, then they are blind because he was way down in minutes and role when the games matter, they playoffs so why that would suddenly change this coming season makes zero sense. He would be one year older, the team trading for him would get one less year of him and at the end of next season, the Oilers would be looking to get rid of ALL of his 6 mill so that means they are taking picks and prospects.

You may not like the return for Eberle but at least the Oilers got an actual NHL player that can fill a roster spot in your top 6, maybe higher and you know you will get contribution out of him. Waiting a year and trading Eberle for a few draft picks because you can't take on any salary has the potential of you getting NOTHING for him. If you can't take salary back, then you probably aren't getting a first for him so not you are in the later rounds and there is no guarantee that any draft pick will be a player.

So disagree with me all you want because that's your MO but holding on to Eberle for another season to "go for it" would have been a massively stupid mistake in my opinion.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697650 is a reply to message #697649 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 14:42


So disagree with me all you want because that's your MO


Haha, you got me. I spend all my time on here searching your posts to find ways to disagree with them because I am against you on a deeply personal level.

It's not possibly the fact that I hold a different opinion than you on Eberle, or Russell or Strome. One that I try to back up as much as possible with evidence, and have, on multiple occasions, gone out of my way to point out when we agree on something.

And I fully acknowledge that when you respond to my posts, it's because my thoughts are, "massively stupid"; but when I respond to disagree with yours I'm just full on trolling to make you angry.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697654 is a reply to message #697650 ]
Wed, 12 July 2017 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ct_cruiser  is currently offline ct_cruiser
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In RD's defense, and as a 3rd party, you did kind of start this one. He was expressing his happiness with this signing and there wasn't really a good reason to debate his opinions and tell him he's wrong, whether they used faulty logic or not. (Which I'm not making a judgement on).

As for the signing, I love it. We needed a vet, we needed to add someone who can put up points to help fill the gap left by eberle, and the other aspects of his game such as his versatility and face off % are all pluses.

CT



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697658 is a reply to message #697650 ]
Thu, 13 July 2017 08:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 14:42


So disagree with me all you want because that's your MO


Haha, you got me. I spend all my time on here searching your posts to find ways to disagree with them because I am against you on a deeply personal level.

It's not possibly the fact that I hold a different opinion than you on Eberle, or Russell or Strome. One that I try to back up as much as possible with evidence, and have, on multiple occasions, gone out of my way to point out when we agree on something.

And I fully acknowledge that when you respond to my posts, it's because my thoughts are, "massively stupid"; but when I respond to disagree with yours I'm just full on trolling to make you angry.


I did not say what so ever your comments are massively stupid. I said right in my post it would be massively stupid in my opinion for the Oilers to hold on to Eberle and go for it then trade him the next offseason. I backed that last statement up in the lines before by saying that they would get nothing but picks because they would need to shed his salary completely. I referenced the McDavid salary as being a huge ticket all at once to bring on. I referenced a most likely reduced role for Eberle given how they deployed him in the playoffs. I referenced that by waiting one more year, they would need to shed all of his 6 mill so that means they wouldn't be looking to take on an actual player. I referenced because they can't take on a salary, that probably eliminated getting a first. I referenced the chances of a draft pick making the NHL gets lower out of the first round. It's all right there, spelled out in my post. So to say you aren't stirring the pot by putting words in my mouth saying I called your comment directly stupid is flat out false. If I had said "Goose, your comment is massively stupid" then by all means. I did not say that what so ever.

[Updated on: Thu, 13 July 2017 08:23]


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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697659 is a reply to message #697658 ]
Thu, 13 July 2017 08:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJ  is currently offline MJ
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RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 13 July 2017 07:21

Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 14:42


So disagree with me all you want because that's your MO


Haha, you got me. I spend all my time on here searching your posts to find ways to disagree with them because I am against you on a deeply personal level.

It's not possibly the fact that I hold a different opinion than you on Eberle, or Russell or Strome. One that I try to back up as much as possible with evidence, and have, on multiple occasions, gone out of my way to point out when we agree on something.

And I fully acknowledge that when you respond to my posts, it's because my thoughts are, "massively stupid"; but when I respond to disagree with yours I'm just full on trolling to make you angry.


I did not say what so ever your comments are massively stupid. I said right in my post it would be massively stupid in my opinion for the Oilers to hold on to Eberle and go for it then trade him the next offseason. I backed that last statement up in the lines before by saying that they would get nothing but picks because they would need to shed his salary completely. I referenced the McDavid salary as being a huge ticket all at once to bring on. I referenced a most likely reduced role for Eberle given how they deployed him in the playoffs. I referenced that by waiting one more year, they would need to shed all of his 6 mill so that means they wouldn't be looking to take on an actual player. I referenced because they can't take on a salary, that probably eliminated getting a first. I referenced the chances of a draft pick making the NHL gets lower out of the first round. It's all right there, spelled out in my post. So to say you aren't stirring the pot by putting words in my mouth saying I called your comment directly stupid is flat out false. If I had said "Goose, your comment is massively stupid" then by all means. I did not say that what so ever.


Yeesh, let it go RDO. This is just ridiculous.

If you didn't feel the need to add the unnecessary and obnoxious line: "So disagree with me all you want because that's your MO" to it, this sub-thread would not have happened. Cool your tone a bit and debates will be more fun for you, others and people just reading what are generally excellent points on both sides.



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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697660 is a reply to message #697659 ]
Thu, 13 July 2017 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
OilPeg  is currently offline OilPeg
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MJ wrote on Thu, 13 July 2017 09:27

RDOilerfan wrote on Thu, 13 July 2017 07:21

Goose wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 15:57

RDOilerfan wrote on Wed, 12 July 2017 14:42


So disagree with me all you want because that's your MO


Haha, you got me. I spend all my time on here searching your posts to find ways to disagree with them because I am against you on a deeply personal level.

It's not possibly the fact that I hold a different opinion than you on Eberle, or Russell or Strome. One that I try to back up as much as possible with evidence, and have, on multiple occasions, gone out of my way to point out when we agree on something.

And I fully acknowledge that when you respond to my posts, it's because my thoughts are, "massively stupid"; but when I respond to disagree with yours I'm just full on trolling to make you angry.


I did not say what so ever your comments are massively stupid. I said right in my post it would be massively stupid in my opinion for the Oilers to hold on to Eberle and go for it then trade him the next offseason. I backed that last statement up in the lines before by saying that they would get nothing but picks because they would need to shed his salary completely. I referenced the McDavid salary as being a huge ticket all at once to bring on. I referenced a most likely reduced role for Eberle given how they deployed him in the playoffs. I referenced that by waiting one more year, they would need to shed all of his 6 mill so that means they wouldn't be looking to take on an actual player. I referenced because they can't take on a salary, that probably eliminated getting a first. I referenced the chances of a draft pick making the NHL gets lower out of the first round. It's all right there, spelled out in my post. So to say you aren't stirring the pot by putting words in my mouth saying I called your comment directly stupid is flat out false. If I had said "Goose, your comment is massively stupid" then by all means. I did not say that what so ever.


Yeesh, let it go RDO. This is just ridiculous.

If you didn't feel the need to add the unnecessary and obnoxious line: "So disagree with me all you want because that's your MO" to it, this sub-thread would not have happened. Cool your tone a bit and debates will be more fun for you, others and people just reading what are generally excellent points on both sides.


Now you guys did it! Dad's involved!!



Skookum Jim wrote on Sat, 02 June 2012 00:29

But he (Belanger)'s as soft as room temp. margarine.

Twitter: @penuita15

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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697661 is a reply to message #697660 ]
Thu, 13 July 2017 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon_Matt  is currently offline Dragon_Matt
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I don't know, my wife would love this. She watches all those real life drama shows where everybody argues a lot.


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 Re: Jussi Jokinen signed - 1 year [message #697663 is a reply to message #697661 ]
Thu, 13 July 2017 09:15 Go to previous message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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Well I have been told. Back to hockey now.



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