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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696496 is a reply to message #696495 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
McDavid97  is currently offline McDavid97
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welcometotheOC wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 12:44

It's that hard Siberian living he's been doing!


All the vodka.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696494 is a reply to message #696490 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
McDavid97  is currently offline McDavid97
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welcometotheOC wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 12:35

Check Google again. Born July 5th, 1986. Therefore, 30 years of age (almost 31).



Thanks. Forgot what site I clicked on but it had him at 38.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696469 is a reply to message #696461 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NZ Oiler Fan  is currently offline NZ Oiler Fan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 11:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 10:51


What does he do well? He skates really well. He sacrifices his body for his team. He plays his ass off. For a small guy, he competes hard. He defends reasonably well. He retrieves the puck well and seems to get it going the right way most of the time. His team loves him and feels he plays an important role. Not just the coaches, the guys wearing the jersey so they obviously think he does a lot of good things for the team to help them win.



Can you please explain the bolded part a little better? How does Kris Russell seem to get the puck going the right way most of the time?


Would have thought that was pretty obvious. He passes it to Sekera, who moves it up to the forwards. icon_wink

Russell reminds me a lot of Steve Staios late in his career actually. Great shot blocker, but relies FAR too much on the ring it around the boards and hope for the best.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696476 is a reply to message #696461 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 11:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 10:51


What does he do well? He skates really well. He sacrifices his body for his team. He plays his ass off. For a small guy, he competes hard. He defends reasonably well. He retrieves the puck well and seems to get it going the right way most of the time. His team loves him and feels he plays an important role. Not just the coaches, the guys wearing the jersey so they obviously think he does a lot of good things for the team to help them win.



Can you please explain the bolded part a little better? How does Kris Russell seem to get the puck going the right way most of the time?

In the 2015-2016 season the Oilers had 70 pts, scored 199 goals and allowed 242 goals which is good for -43 goal differential and were 18th in PK.
In the 2016-2017 season, the Oilers had 103 pts, scored 243 goals, 207 goals allowed which is good for +36 goal differential and were 17th in PK.
Russell played as the Oilers #4 right shot dman even though he is a left shot and averaged 21:13 mins a night. So with Russell playing a lot of mins in a top 4 role, the Oilers allowed 35 less goals and had a 79 total goal differential turn around. Now did McDavid help in that? Yes. Did Talbot help in that? Yes. Did other players help in that? Yes but do did Russell. This will be the last time I say these words because once again I am having to say the same argument over and over again to you on a player. As a team, you don't improve by 33 pts in the standings, you don't allow 35 less goals, you don't have a 79 goal differential improvement by playing a player over 21 mins a night in an important role if Russell is as bad as you Adam and a few others like to say he is. Does having McDavid and Talbot in 2 key positions help the entire team, absolutely. But they are 2 guys. Hockey is a team sport. You can't have lousy players playing in key positions and succeed as a team. A McDavid and a Talbot can only compensate so much. Playing over 21 mins a night means you are playing A KEY POSITION.

When I said he seems to get the puck going the right way I am saying that when the puck goes into the Oilers zone with Russell is on the ice, more good things are happening than bad and the puck is not in their net. So feel free to list off all the bad advanced stats you want to support your argument, go ahead and leave out the good ones if you want. They don't matter because the results on the ice in the way of wins, better defensive numbers in goals allowed and overall team success stats say that when he was on the ice, he had to of done more good things than bad other wise he would have cost his team too much given the ice time he got.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696493 is a reply to message #696476 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike  is currently offline Mike
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If people want to praise Russell's PK, shot blocking, or even personality I won't argue it. If someone is praising Russell's puck moving/breakout ability, I can only assume they didn't watch much Oilers hockey from about November on.

Someone mentioned late career Staios (for breaking out) - couldn't have said it better.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696498 is a reply to message #696476 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 12:03

Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 11:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 10:51


What does he do well? He skates really well. He sacrifices his body for his team. He plays his ass off. For a small guy, he competes hard. He defends reasonably well. He retrieves the puck well and seems to get it going the right way most of the time. His team loves him and feels he plays an important role. Not just the coaches, the guys wearing the jersey so they obviously think he does a lot of good things for the team to help them win.



Can you please explain the bolded part a little better? How does Kris Russell seem to get the puck going the right way most of the time?

In the 2015-2016 season the Oilers had 70 pts, scored 199 goals and allowed 242 goals which is good for -43 goal differential and were 18th in PK.
In the 2016-2017 season, the Oilers had 103 pts, scored 243 goals, 207 goals allowed which is good for +36 goal differential and were 17th in PK.
Russell played as the Oilers #4 right shot dman even though he is a left shot and averaged 21:13 mins a night. So with Russell playing a lot of mins in a top 4 role, the Oilers allowed 35 less goals and had a 79 total goal differential turn around. Now did McDavid help in that? Yes. Did Talbot help in that? Yes. Did other players help in that? Yes but do did Russell. This will be the last time I say these words because once again I am having to say the same argument over and over again to you on a player. As a team, you don't improve by 33 pts in the standings, you don't allow 35 less goals, you don't have a 79 goal differential improvement by playing a player over 21 mins a night in an important role if Russell is as bad as you Adam and a few others like to say he is. Does having McDavid and Talbot in 2 key positions help the entire team, absolutely. But they are 2 guys. Hockey is a team sport. You can't have lousy players playing in key positions and succeed as a team. A McDavid and a Talbot can only compensate so much. Playing over 21 mins a night means you are playing A KEY POSITION.

When I said he seems to get the puck going the right way I am saying that when the puck goes into the Oilers zone with Russell is on the ice, more good things are happening than bad and the puck is not in their net. So feel free to list off all the bad advanced stats you want to support your argument, go ahead and leave out the good ones if you want. They don't matter because the results on the ice in the way of wins, better defensive numbers in goals allowed and overall team success stats say that when he was on the ice, he had to of done more good things than bad other wise he would have cost his team too much given the ice time he got.


You keep talking about team numbers. I've yet to see any evidence suggesting that Kris Russell advances the puck well. Your argument seems to be, well, the team was better, so how bad could he be? That is not your argument for players like Eberle though...Couldn't we say the same there? Yes, he scored less than usual, but the team improved by 33 points, finished with 103 points, got home ice advantage, won a playoff round. How bad was he really? He must have been a positive contributor, because the team was good.

Or you could take the opposite tack and say Nathan McKinnon must be a terrible hockey player because the Avalanche were bad and actually got worse by 34 points than the season before. Surely McKinnon was a factor in that.



"This team needs an enema!"
#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan

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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696508 is a reply to message #696498 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 12:48

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 12:03

Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 11:00

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 10:51


What does he do well? He skates really well. He sacrifices his body for his team. He plays his ass off. For a small guy, he competes hard. He defends reasonably well. He retrieves the puck well and seems to get it going the right way most of the time. His team loves him and feels he plays an important role. Not just the coaches, the guys wearing the jersey so they obviously think he does a lot of good things for the team to help them win.



Can you please explain the bolded part a little better? How does Kris Russell seem to get the puck going the right way most of the time?

In the 2015-2016 season the Oilers had 70 pts, scored 199 goals and allowed 242 goals which is good for -43 goal differential and were 18th in PK.
In the 2016-2017 season, the Oilers had 103 pts, scored 243 goals, 207 goals allowed which is good for +36 goal differential and were 17th in PK.
Russell played as the Oilers #4 right shot dman even though he is a left shot and averaged 21:13 mins a night. So with Russell playing a lot of mins in a top 4 role, the Oilers allowed 35 less goals and had a 79 total goal differential turn around. Now did McDavid help in that? Yes. Did Talbot help in that? Yes. Did other players help in that? Yes but do did Russell. This will be the last time I say these words because once again I am having to say the same argument over and over again to you on a player. As a team, you don't improve by 33 pts in the standings, you don't allow 35 less goals, you don't have a 79 goal differential improvement by playing a player over 21 mins a night in an important role if Russell is as bad as you Adam and a few others like to say he is. Does having McDavid and Talbot in 2 key positions help the entire team, absolutely. But they are 2 guys. Hockey is a team sport. You can't have lousy players playing in key positions and succeed as a team. A McDavid and a Talbot can only compensate so much. Playing over 21 mins a night means you are playing A KEY POSITION.

When I said he seems to get the puck going the right way I am saying that when the puck goes into the Oilers zone with Russell is on the ice, more good things are happening than bad and the puck is not in their net. So feel free to list off all the bad advanced stats you want to support your argument, go ahead and leave out the good ones if you want. They don't matter because the results on the ice in the way of wins, better defensive numbers in goals allowed and overall team success stats say that when he was on the ice, he had to of done more good things than bad other wise he would have cost his team too much given the ice time he got.


You keep talking about team numbers. I've yet to see any evidence suggesting that Kris Russell advances the puck well. Your argument seems to be, well, the team was better, so how bad could he be? That is not your argument for players like Eberle though...Couldn't we say the same there? Yes, he scored less than usual, but the team improved by 33 points, finished with 103 points, got home ice advantage, won a playoff round. How bad was he really? He must have been a positive contributor, because the team was good.

Or you could take the opposite tack and say Nathan McKinnon must be a terrible hockey player because the Avalanche were bad and actually got worse by 34 points than the season before. Surely McKinnon was a factor in that.


I am not going to get sucked into another pointless argument with you Adam. You have said it right in your posts that Chia is a bad GM who doesn't know what he is doing. Right there, that means we will never find common ground. I am not delusional in thinking that every GM is perfect, I know they make good and bad moves. But overall, given the garbage team that Chia inherited, I think he has done a pretty decent job. Based on your comments and how you bring up McDavid every time to argue against the players you don't like because apparently he cures all, you seem to have the opinion that the Chia Oilers are nothing more than McDavid and are still the same crap team under Mac T and Tambo, they just have McDavid. I disagree big time on that.

You said the Hall trade was bad. I thought the trade wasn't as bad as people thought, took a bit of a wait and see approach and believe it worked out in the Oilers favor. But I got beaten up by the likes of you with stat after stat of why Hall is wonderful and Larsson while good, didn't have that big of an impact because of McDavid, Talbot, blah, blah, blah. I think the affect that Larsson had on the Oilers defense and the team speaks for itself give how well they finished. I personally think that if they didn't trade Hall and signed Demers, not only would they Oilers not have been as good, they would have not been able to sign Lucic which I also believe had a big impact positively to the team. But do I have a stat or a spread sheet that proves that for you, NO I don't.

You hate the Eberle trade. You feel that the Oilers should have waited to trade him for one more season because technically they could afford him for one more year. You feel like if they kept him, Eberle would have this massive year and that teams would be lining up to throw assets at the Oilers begging to get Eberle in the offseason not caring that next offseason, the Oilers would have been in desperation mode to shed salary. Given that most GM's prey on other teams that get into cap problems and fleece them in trades, I don't see how the hell the Oilers wouldn't get anything more than a bunch of lousy picks and prospects for Eberle because they wouldn't be able to take back any salary but again, I have no stat or evidence to prove what could have happened a year from now. I also don't believe for a second that on the Oilers that Eberle would have this massive bounce back year. I say that because he wouldn't play with McDavid like he did for 1/4 of the season, he wouldn't be on the first until PP. McDavid and Leon will be getting all the premium offensive chances. So he'd be in a lesser role than he started with, getting significantly less PP time and probably playing less mins in offensive situations like we saw last year. When there is an icing and the other teams 4th line and 3rd pairing is on the ice tired, McDavid and Leon will be jumping over the boards, not Eberle like he used too. So how he is going to have this huge bounce back year when he would be playing less mins with less PP time and less offensively situations, I have no clue. I also think having people continuously link him to trades all around the league impacted his season negatively and have that drag on for another year would have made it worse for him. He said it in an interview after the trade that being rumored to be traded all the time weighed on him. But I have no stats or way to prove what could happen next season.

You dislike Russell, you always have. You think he is a 3rd pairing guy. As I stated above, you feel the Oilers improvement is largely McDavid and to a lesser extent, Talbot. So it wouldn't matter if I had a spread sheet, all you would do is say "Well he had McDavid" which is what you do right now. I look at the rise in the standings, I see how well they did defensively compared to the previous years. I hear what the players say and how they praise him. Maybe you are one of those people who believe that all players are liars and just say nice things just because to keep the peace. I don't. I believe players tend to go neutral on most players. They don't commit to anything too positive or too negative. They say things like "oh he's a good guy, good teammate, plays the system". But I hear a ton of players talking about "Rusty". They go on and on about him being a warrior, how tough he is, how much he sacrifices himself for the team, how he does this and that, what a great guy he is, what he means to the team and how critical he was to their success. Listen to the starting goalie talk about "Rusty" and gush about him. I saw how the coaches used him and hear what how much they praise. So I have to think that means something. If the coaches think he's critical to the team success, I believe them. When the players, especially the best players gush about a guy, I have to think he's important to them. When the last line of defense, the goalie gushes about Russell, I assume that means he does good things for the team. Players aren't stupid, they know who's good and who's bad. Who contributes, and who doesn't. Who's critical to the team and who's not.

So that is my evidence. If you don't want to believe it or think all the players are just lying to everyone, that's fine. But I have no stat or spread sheet to prove that when the guys with the jerseys on say he is a huge part of the team and played a key role in their success, they are indeed telling the truth. I can't fathom a reason why many players would lie like that but anything is possible.
I'm out of the Russell debate with you now.

[Updated on: Mon, 26 June 2017 13:58]


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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696514 is a reply to message #696508 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sloiler  is currently offline sloiler
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GREAT COMMENT. I can't agree with you more.
What is done, is done. Can't change it. This is the Oilers team we have, who are lead by a GM who has earned his right to be a GM in the National Hockey League.
I am sure that the Oilers organization as a whole, know that the time is now or very soon for the Oilers to start winning cups again. For them to go out and start tossing the towel in would be stupid when you have arguably the best two up and coming players in the league. With the people that they have IN THE ROOM, and who watch a lot more hockey than any of us, with stat sheets that would make ours look like a postage stamp, I for one trust their decisions over any key board cowboy who types a lot of messages.
We get it some people don't like the Russell signing, no need to ruin EVERY thread with talk about Russell. Move on, get over it, or change teams.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696517 is a reply to message #696514 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goose  is currently offline Goose
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sloiler wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 12:45

With the people that they have IN THE ROOM, and who watch a lot more hockey than any of us, with stat sheets that would make ours look like a postage stamp, I for one trust their decisions over any key board cowboy who types a lot of messages.



This team hasn't won a Cup in 27 years and has just gone through one of the worst decades in team sports history.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696518 is a reply to message #696508 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adam  is currently offline Adam
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 13:30


I am not going to get sucked into another pointless argument with you Adam. You have said it right in your posts that Chia is a bad GM who doesn't know what he is doing. Right there, that means we will never find common ground. I am not delusional in thinking that every GM is perfect, I know they make good and bad moves. But overall, given the garbage team that Chia inherited, I think he has done a pretty decent job. Based on your comments and how you bring up McDavid every time to argue against the players you don't like because apparently he cures all, you seem to have the opinion that the Chia Oilers are nothing more than McDavid and are still the same crap team under Mac T and Tambo, they just have McDavid. I disagree big time on that.

You said the Hall trade was bad. I thought the trade wasn't as bad as people thought, took a bit of a wait and see approach and believe it worked out in the Oilers favor. But I got beaten up by the likes of you with stat after stat of why Hall is wonderful and Larsson while good, didn't have that big of an impact because of McDavid, Talbot, blah, blah, blah. I think the affect that Larsson had on the Oilers defense and the team speaks for itself give how well they finished. I personally think that if they didn't trade Hall and signed Demers, not only would they Oilers not have been as good, they would have not been able to sign Lucic which I also believe had a big impact positively to the team. But do I have a stat or a spread sheet that proves that for you, NO I don't.

You hate the Eberle trade. You feel that the Oilers should have waited to trade him for one more season because technically they could afford him for one more year. You feel like if they kept him, Eberle would have this massive year and that teams would be lining up to throw assets at the Oilers begging to get Eberle in the offseason not caring that next offseason, the Oilers would have been in desperation mode to shed salary. Given that most GM's prey on other teams that get into cap problems and fleece them in trades, I don't see how the hell the Oilers wouldn't get anything more than a bunch of lousy picks and prospects for Eberle because they wouldn't be able to take back any salary but again, I have no stat or evidence to prove what could have happened a year from now. I also don't believe for a second that on the Oilers that Eberle would have this massive bounce back year. I say that because he wouldn't play with McDavid like he did for 1/4 of the season, he wouldn't be on the first until PP. McDavid and Leon will be getting all the premium offensive chances. So he'd be in a lesser role than he started with, getting significantly less PP time and probably playing less mins in offensive situations like we saw last year. When there is an icing and the other teams 4th line and 3rd pairing is on the ice tired, McDavid and Leon will be jumping over the boards, not Eberle like he used too. So how he is going to have this huge bounce back year when he would be playing less mins with less PP time and less offensively situations, I have no clue. But I have no stats or way to prove what could happen next season.

You dislike Russell, you always have. You think he is a 3rd pairing guy. As I stated above, you feel the Oilers improvement is largely McDavid and to a lesser extent, Talbot. So it wouldn't matter if I had a spread sheet, all you would do is say "Well he had McDavid" which is what you do right now. I look at the rise in the standings, I see how well they did defensively compared to the previous years. I hear what the players say and how they praise him. Maybe you are one of those people who believe that all players are liars and just say nice things just because to keep the peace. I don't. I believe players tend to go neutral on most players. They don't commit to anything too positive or too negative. They say things like "oh he's a good guy, good teammate, plays the system". But I hear a ton of players talking about "Rusty". They go on and on about him being a warrior, how tough he is, how much he sacrifices himself for the team, how he does this and that, what a great guy he is, what he means to the team and how critical he was to their success. Listen to the starting goalie talk about "Rusty" and gush about him. I saw how the coaches used him and hear what how much they praise. So I have to think that means something. If the coaches think he's critical to the team success, I believe them. When the players, especially the best players gush about a guy, I have to think he's important to them. When the last line of defense, the goalie gushes about Russell, I assume that means he does good things for the team.

So that is my evidence. If you don't want to believe it or think all the players are just lying to everyone, that's fine. But I have no stat or spread sheet to prove that when the guys with the jerseys on say he is a huge part of the team and played a key role in their success, they are indeed telling the truth. I can't fathom a reason why many players would lie like that but anything is possible.
I'm out of the Russell debate with you now.


A few points:

1) You're not really debating. I'm asking you for something that backs up your argument and you're pointing to team stats and remembered quotes. You're not even providing specific quotes from players and coaches.

2) I don't think I've officially called Chia a bad GM yet. He does some things well - ie. negotiating second deals with RFA minor league/bubble guys, and he's brought in a couple underperforming players for cheap. I think he's a poor negotiator, and that's reflected in his inability to even get a 7th round pick thrown in to deals that look lopsided to almost anyone not wearing rose-tinted glasses.

3) I've never said firmly there is no way the Oilers should trade Eberle right now. I've been pretty clear that the return should justify it if that were to happen. And I don't believe trading straight up for a guy who scores 20 points per season less is good value.

4) I don't "dislike" Russell. It's not personal. I wish he was better. He seems like a good guy. I just don't think he's the best option for the Oilers, and I don't like that the team has now committed to him for the next four years.

5) McDavid was in on well over 40% of the Oilers goals this year. I'm pretty certain it was the highest percentage of team offence of any player in the league. There is no doubt that he was a huge, HUGE part of the team success. Talbot played more games and more minutes than anyone else in the league and maintained a very good save percentage through all of that. He was pretty key too. I'm curious - if you were asked to divvy up 100% of the Oilers year-over-year improvement, how much would you give to McDavid, Talbot, team health and Kris Russell?

6) All I'm asking from you is some rational back-up to your argument that Russell advances the puck well. The stats suggest he doesn't. I spent a lot of time watching him specifically in games last year on breakout passes - he almost never completes them. His preferred methods of moving the puck are A) give it to Sekera and B) rifle it out of the zone. He penalty kills well...if that was the argument, I'd give that to you, but to say he moves the puck in the right direction? That's a specific skill that I believe means more than he ices the puck or sends it right back to the other team in the neutral zone. It sounds like something that suggests that we maintain possession and move up-ice after he corrals it in the defensive zone. Maybe it means something different to you?



"This team needs an enema!"
#FireLowe #FireMacT #FireHowson #FireBuchberger #FireHowsonAgain #FireChiarelli #FireMcLellan

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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696523 is a reply to message #696518 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oilerfan79  is currently offline oilerfan79
Messages: 63
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Back up your opinions that Russel had nothing to do with the success of the team. Last I saw McDavid and Talbot weren't the only 2 guys on the ice for the Oilers. It is a team sport after all.

That Chiarelli didn't get market value for either Hall or Eberle. Two players that have never done anything but lose their entire careers. Winning adds value loosing does the opposite.

Who will be a better option than Russel at that price point that is willing to come to the Oilers.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696526 is a reply to message #696518 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RDOilerfan is currently online RDOilerfan
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:03

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 13:30


I am not going to get sucked into another pointless argument with you Adam. You have said it right in your posts that Chia is a bad GM who doesn't know what he is doing. Right there, that means we will never find common ground. I am not delusional in thinking that every GM is perfect, I know they make good and bad moves. But overall, given the garbage team that Chia inherited, I think he has done a pretty decent job. Based on your comments and how you bring up McDavid every time to argue against the players you don't like because apparently he cures all, you seem to have the opinion that the Chia Oilers are nothing more than McDavid and are still the same crap team under Mac T and Tambo, they just have McDavid. I disagree big time on that.

You said the Hall trade was bad. I thought the trade wasn't as bad as people thought, took a bit of a wait and see approach and believe it worked out in the Oilers favor. But I got beaten up by the likes of you with stat after stat of why Hall is wonderful and Larsson while good, didn't have that big of an impact because of McDavid, Talbot, blah, blah, blah. I think the affect that Larsson had on the Oilers defense and the team speaks for itself give how well they finished. I personally think that if they didn't trade Hall and signed Demers, not only would they Oilers not have been as good, they would have not been able to sign Lucic which I also believe had a big impact positively to the team. But do I have a stat or a spread sheet that proves that for you, NO I don't.

You hate the Eberle trade. You feel that the Oilers should have waited to trade him for one more season because technically they could afford him for one more year. You feel like if they kept him, Eberle would have this massive year and that teams would be lining up to throw assets at the Oilers begging to get Eberle in the offseason not caring that next offseason, the Oilers would have been in desperation mode to shed salary. Given that most GM's prey on other teams that get into cap problems and fleece them in trades, I don't see how the hell the Oilers wouldn't get anything more than a bunch of lousy picks and prospects for Eberle because they wouldn't be able to take back any salary but again, I have no stat or evidence to prove what could have happened a year from now. I also don't believe for a second that on the Oilers that Eberle would have this massive bounce back year. I say that because he wouldn't play with McDavid like he did for 1/4 of the season, he wouldn't be on the first until PP. McDavid and Leon will be getting all the premium offensive chances. So he'd be in a lesser role than he started with, getting significantly less PP time and probably playing less mins in offensive situations like we saw last year. When there is an icing and the other teams 4th line and 3rd pairing is on the ice tired, McDavid and Leon will be jumping over the boards, not Eberle like he used too. So how he is going to have this huge bounce back year when he would be playing less mins with less PP time and less offensively situations, I have no clue. But I have no stats or way to prove what could happen next season.

You dislike Russell, you always have. You think he is a 3rd pairing guy. As I stated above, you feel the Oilers improvement is largely McDavid and to a lesser extent, Talbot. So it wouldn't matter if I had a spread sheet, all you would do is say "Well he had McDavid" which is what you do right now. I look at the rise in the standings, I see how well they did defensively compared to the previous years. I hear what the players say and how they praise him. Maybe you are one of those people who believe that all players are liars and just say nice things just because to keep the peace. I don't. I believe players tend to go neutral on most players. They don't commit to anything too positive or too negative. They say things like "oh he's a good guy, good teammate, plays the system". But I hear a ton of players talking about "Rusty". They go on and on about him being a warrior, how tough he is, how much he sacrifices himself for the team, how he does this and that, what a great guy he is, what he means to the team and how critical he was to their success. Listen to the starting goalie talk about "Rusty" and gush about him. I saw how the coaches used him and hear what how much they praise. So I have to think that means something. If the coaches think he's critical to the team success, I believe them. When the players, especially the best players gush about a guy, I have to think he's important to them. When the last line of defense, the goalie gushes about Russell, I assume that means he does good things for the team.

So that is my evidence. If you don't want to believe it or think all the players are just lying to everyone, that's fine. But I have no stat or spread sheet to prove that when the guys with the jerseys on say he is a huge part of the team and played a key role in their success, they are indeed telling the truth. I can't fathom a reason why many players would lie like that but anything is possible.
I'm out of the Russell debate with you now.


A few points:

1) You're not really debating. I'm asking you for something that backs up your argument and you're pointing to team stats and remembered quotes. You're not even providing specific quotes from players and coaches.

2) I don't think I've officially called Chia a bad GM yet. He does some things well - ie. negotiating second deals with RFA minor league/bubble guys, and he's brought in a couple underperforming players for cheap. I think he's a poor negotiator, and that's reflected in his inability to even get a 7th round pick thrown in to deals that look lopsided to almost anyone not wearing rose-tinted glasses.

3) I've never said firmly there is no way the Oilers should trade Eberle right now. I've been pretty clear that the return should justify it if that were to happen. And I don't believe trading straight up for a guy who scores 20 points per season less is good value.

4) I don't "dislike" Russell. It's not personal. I wish he was better. He seems like a good guy. I just don't think he's the best option for the Oilers, and I don't like that the team has now committed to him for the next four years.

5) McDavid was in on well over 40% of the Oilers goals this year. I'm pretty certain it was the highest percentage of team offence of any player in the league. There is no doubt that he was a huge, HUGE part of the team success. Talbot played more games and more minutes than anyone else in the league and maintained a very good save percentage through all of that. He was pretty key too. I'm curious - if you were asked to divvy up 100% of the Oilers year-over-year improvement, how much would you give to McDavid, Talbot, team health and Kris Russell?

6) All I'm asking from you is some rational back-up to your argument that Russell advances the puck well. The stats suggest he doesn't. I spent a lot of time watching him specifically in games last year on breakout passes - he almost never completes them. His preferred methods of moving the puck are A) give it to Sekera and B) rifle it out of the zone. He penalty kills well...if that was the argument, I'd give that to you, but to say he moves the puck in the right direction? That's a specific skill that I believe means more than he ices the puck or sends it right back to the other team in the neutral zone. It sounds like something that suggests that we maintain possession and move up-ice after he corrals it in the defensive zone. Maybe it means something different to you?


As I have said and not sure how much more black and white I can spell it out. I am done debating with you because it is pointless. It doesn't matter what evidence I give, if I quote stats or not. If it doesn't align with your opinion, its wrong in your books. So seriously, I see zero point in continuing. I have given my opinion. It's based on what I see, read and hear. The running joke by you and a few others is I completely ignore stats and am clueless to them. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I look at all kind of stats. As I have said, I believe starts are one tool in a teams tool box. But I do not believe that stats are the end all be all like some people do.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696533 is a reply to message #696526 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:17


As I have said and not sure how much more black and white I can spell it out. I am done debating with you because it is pointless. It doesn't matter what evidence I give, if I quote stats or not. If it doesn't align with your opinion, its wrong in your books. So seriously, I see zero point in continuing. I have given my opinion. It's based on what I see, read and hear. The running joke by you and a few others is I completely ignore stats and am clueless to them. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I look at all kind of stats. As I have said, I believe starts are one tool in a teams tool box. But I do not believe that stats are the end all be all like some people do.


Let me make this clear, I don't think you're a running joke at all. I think you're a valuable poster for this forum. I think you could be an even better poster if you backed your opinion up with more than just your opinion.

As with all debates, it's not ever about convincing the person on the polar opposite side from you that you're right. I don't expect you're going to admit you're wrong about much of this. But there are lots of people trying to decide what they think about the team's moves, and persuasive arguments one way or another may decide them.

I should also note, I HAVE changed my opinion on players in the past when I've been convinced by the evidence there. I've been wrong, and I've said so.

Here, you're up against a lot of statistical evidence, plus my own long-running focussed observation on the player. It's unlikely I'm going to come around and think that Russell is a valuable contributor to the team's success unless he starts playing the game differently and completing passes.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696539 is a reply to message #696533 ]
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:40


Let me make this clear, I don't think you're a running joke at all. I think you're a valuable poster for this forum. I think you could be an even better poster if you backed your opinion up with more than just your opinion.




I just wanted to echo this. You took some getting used to and I admit to being an abrasive pest but I like having you around here.
If we all simply agreed this wouldnt be much fun.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696534 is a reply to message #696526 ]
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:17



As I have said and not sure how much more black and white I can spell it out. I am done debating with you because it is pointless. It doesn't matter what evidence I give, if I quote stats or not. If it doesn't align with your opinion, its wrong in your books. So seriously, I see zero point in continuing. I have given my opinion. It's based on what I see, read and hear. The running joke by you and a few others is I completely ignore stats and am clueless to them. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I look at all kind of stats. As I have said, I believe starts are one tool in a teams tool box. But I do not believe that stats are the end all be all like some people do.


I am not being mean or giving you a "pounding" as you have put it but I am asking honestly. As you put it you are basing this on what you see, hear and read AND you do look at stats, so give me some that arent ONLY team stats that show Russell helps advance the puck up the ice.

I like the things he does, I WANT to like this signing so I am asking, practically begging, completely open for you to tell me why Russell is more than a third pairing DMan



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696544 is a reply to message #696534 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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PlusOne wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:40

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:17



As I have said and not sure how much more black and white I can spell it out. I am done debating with you because it is pointless. It doesn't matter what evidence I give, if I quote stats or not. If it doesn't align with your opinion, its wrong in your books. So seriously, I see zero point in continuing. I have given my opinion. It's based on what I see, read and hear. The running joke by you and a few others is I completely ignore stats and am clueless to them. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I look at all kind of stats. As I have said, I believe starts are one tool in a teams tool box. But I do not believe that stats are the end all be all like some people do.


I am not being mean or giving you a "pounding" as you have put it but I am asking honestly. As you put it you are basing this on what you see, hear and read AND you do look at stats, so give me some that arent ONLY team stats that show Russell helps advance the puck up the ice.

I like the things he does, I WANT to like this signing so I am asking, practically begging, completely open for you to tell me why Russell is more than a third pairing DMan

You just said it, right in your post. You believe he is a 3rd pairing guy, you already have your mind made up. For every good stat I could list, you will counter with a bad one. So you have made up your mind already. So there is zero value in me spending the time combing through stats and listing them to you or a guy like Adam. So I don't see the point in continuing to get sucked into debated with people who already have their mind made up.

[Updated on: Mon, 26 June 2017 15:21]


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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696545 is a reply to message #696544 ]
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:19

PlusOne wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:40

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 14:17



As I have said and not sure how much more black and white I can spell it out. I am done debating with you because it is pointless. It doesn't matter what evidence I give, if I quote stats or not. If it doesn't align with your opinion, its wrong in your books. So seriously, I see zero point in continuing. I have given my opinion. It's based on what I see, read and hear. The running joke by you and a few others is I completely ignore stats and am clueless to them. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I look at all kind of stats. As I have said, I believe starts are one tool in a teams tool box. But I do not believe that stats are the end all be all like some people do.


I am not being mean or giving you a "pounding" as you have put it but I am asking honestly. As you put it you are basing this on what you see, hear and read AND you do look at stats, so give me some that arent ONLY team stats that show Russell helps advance the puck up the ice.

I like the things he does, I WANT to like this signing so I am asking, practically begging, completely open for you to tell me why Russell is more than a third pairing DMan

You just said it, right in your post. You believe he is a 3rd pairing guy. So you have made up your mind already. So explain to me the value of me spending the time combing through stats and listing them to you or a guy like Adam when you have made up your mind? For every good stat I could list, you will counter with a bad one. So I don't see the point in continuing to get sucked into debated with people who already have their mind made up.


I believe that to be the point of a discussion board.
I think Adam mentioned this as well, but I have had my mind changed about Oilers related topics, specifically because of people on this board.
If I ask why Russell is better than a third pairing guy that is my belief right now from what I have read heard and seen.
If you have something to add to the discussion/debate other than we had him and got 103 points last year you might change my mind.
Changing someones mind isnt the only reason to discuss something but you have a VERY strong opinion on Russell but seem unwilling to defend him with anything other than you heard a guy on the radio or saw it with your own eyes

You complain about people on this bored "coming at you" for your opinions but I am very civilly asking you to defend Russell as a player worth the 2nd pairing and his salary.

If you dont want to discuss then I suppose that is fair enough but again this is a discussion bored so expect us to discuss with you when you have an opinion as strong as this one



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696546 is a reply to message #696544 ]
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:19

So I don't see the point in continuing to get sucked into debated with people who already have their mind made up.


Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a discussion board though? It's not often the undecideds who are posting here...



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696554 is a reply to message #696546 ]
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:19

So I don't see the point in continuing to get sucked into debated with people who already have their mind made up.


Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a discussion board though? It's not often the undecideds who are posting here...


I have stated my case multiple times. I think Russell is an OK #4 dman, you don't. I think he helped the Oilers last season, you don't. You believe the spread sheet numbers say he's no good and believe that you can build a team around all spread sheet numbers. I don't. No spread sheet is going to tell me definitively that a player is indeed good or bad or totally measure his value to the team. I believe there are things that you can't measure on a spread sheet that help you win. You don't. What is there to debate?

There were spread sheets out there that said that Yakupov was a good, productive top 6 player. He got traded for next to nothing to the Blues. He went to the Blues and played 40 games, scoring 3 goals and 9 pts. So he was SCRATCHED more games than he played. The Blues today didn't qualify him and are walking away from him. He's a UFA. Now me might get signed by a team for probably a 1 yr deal for under a million or me could just as easily be in the KHL in a couple of months. So if all these spread sheets are so right, how on earth can some spread sheet say Yakupov had top 6 numbers when in a matter of months, its a real possibility that he is out of the league.



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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:43

Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:19

So I don't see the point in continuing to get sucked into debated with people who already have their mind made up.


Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a discussion board though? It's not often the undecideds who are posting here...


I have stated my case multiple times. I think Russell is an OK #4 dman, you don't. I think he helped the Oilers last season, you don't. You believe the spread sheet numbers say he's no good and believe that you can build a team around all spread sheet numbers. I don't. No spread sheet is going to tell me definitively that a player is indeed good or bad or totally measure his value to the team. I believe there are things that you can't measure on a spread sheet that help you win. You don't. What is there to debate?

There were spread sheets out there that said that Yakupov was a good, productive top 6 player. He got traded for next to nothing to the Blues. He went to the Blues and played 40 games, scoring 3 goals and 9 pts. So he was SCRATCHED more games than he played. The Blues today didn't qualify him and are walking away from him. He's a UFA. Now me might get signed by a team for probably a 1 yr deal for under a million or me could just as easily be in the KHL in a couple of months. So if all these spread sheets are so right, how on earth can some spread sheet say Yakupov had top 6 numbers when in a matter of months, its a real possibility that he is out of the league.


No, an opinion isn't enough. Gotta have fancy numbers. Even though we've seen lots of guys with fancy numbers fail miserably, and lots of guys with bad fancy numbers succeed, gotta back it up with fancy numbers. Fancy numbers are the be all and end all.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696563 is a reply to message #696554 ]
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:43

Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:19

So I don't see the point in continuing to get sucked into debated with people who already have their mind made up.


Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a discussion board though? It's not often the undecideds who are posting here...


I have stated my case multiple times. I think Russell is an OK #4 dman, you don't. I think he helped the Oilers last season, you don't. You believe the spread sheet numbers say he's no good and believe that you can build a team around all spread sheet numbers. I don't. No spread sheet is going to tell me definitively that a player is indeed good or bad or totally measure his value to the team. I believe there are things that you can't measure on a spread sheet that help you win. You don't. What is there to debate?

There were spread sheets out there that said that Yakupov was a good, productive top 6 player. He got traded for next to nothing to the Blues. He went to the Blues and played 40 games, scoring 3 goals and 9 pts. So he was SCRATCHED more games than he played. The Blues today didn't qualify him and are walking away from him. He's a UFA. Now me might get signed by a team for probably a 1 yr deal for under a million or me could just as easily be in the KHL in a couple of months. So if all these spread sheets are so right, how on earth can some spread sheet say Yakupov had top 6 numbers when in a matter of months, its a real possibility that he is out of the league.


I think the debate was whether or not Russell advances the puck well.

Yakupov is not really relevant to that. As for players dropping off a cliff, that happens sometimes. Doesn't sound like a good fit for him in St. Louis. I wouldn't give him a top-6 contract based on last year's results.



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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696564 is a reply to message #696563 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 16:05

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:43

Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:24

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 15:19

So I don't see the point in continuing to get sucked into debated with people who already have their mind made up.


Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a discussion board though? It's not often the undecideds who are posting here...


I have stated my case multiple times. I think Russell is an OK #4 dman, you don't. I think he helped the Oilers last season, you don't. You believe the spread sheet numbers say he's no good and believe that you can build a team around all spread sheet numbers. I don't. No spread sheet is going to tell me definitively that a player is indeed good or bad or totally measure his value to the team. I believe there are things that you can't measure on a spread sheet that help you win. You don't. What is there to debate?

There were spread sheets out there that said that Yakupov was a good, productive top 6 player. He got traded for next to nothing to the Blues. He went to the Blues and played 40 games, scoring 3 goals and 9 pts. So he was SCRATCHED more games than he played. The Blues today didn't qualify him and are walking away from him. He's a UFA. Now me might get signed by a team for probably a 1 yr deal for under a million or me could just as easily be in the KHL in a couple of months. So if all these spread sheets are so right, how on earth can some spread sheet say Yakupov had top 6 numbers when in a matter of months, its a real possibility that he is out of the league.


I think the debate was whether or not Russell advances the puck well.

Yakupov is not really relevant to that. As for players dropping off a cliff, that happens sometimes. Doesn't sound like a good fit for him in St. Louis. I wouldn't give him a top-6 contract based on last year's results.


Why isn't Yakupov relevant? You like to bring up certain stats to make your case about Russell and beat me over the head with them. Yakupov had fancy stats that said he was a top 6 forward and should be playing with McDavid yet he might be out of the NHL in a couple of months. So they work for you sometimes but not others?

So Yakupov is totally relevant because it shows that sometimes stats don't tell the whole picture about a player good or bad.

[Updated on: Mon, 26 June 2017 16:20]


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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696567 is a reply to message #696564 ]
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RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 16:16


Why isn't Yakupov relevant? You like to bring up certain stats to make your case about Russell and beat me over the head with them. Yakupov had fancy stats that said he was a top 6 forward and should be playing with McDavid yet he might be out of the NHL in a couple of months. So they work for you sometimes but not others?

So Yakupov is totally relevant because it shows that sometimes stats don't tell the whole picture about a player good or bad.


This debate isn't even about fancy stats...it's about whether Russell moves the puck up ice well.

And stats can change. Yakupov did not maintain his pace of even his last year when he went to St. Louis. He had a coach who didn't believe in him and didn't use him. He didn't fit in.

If you look at his production in earlier seasons, it's not fancy stats that said he was a useful player...it was things like goals and assists. Pull up some of the old threads. The discussion compared him to other people playing similar roles and his numbers were favourable.

EDIT to Add: If you're going to bring up other players though as proof that you might not be 100% wrong on this one, there's some much better examples. I was wrong about Danny Syvret (mentioned that before). I was wrong on Josef Cierny and Alexander Kerch (although those were more based on reading Matty articles than on fancy stats). I didn't think that Scott Mellanby was a big loss. I'll let you know if there's more I can think of to help your future arguments.

[Updated on: Mon, 26 June 2017 16:28]


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 Re: Treenas oil is back!!!!!! [message #696568 is a reply to message #696567 ]
Mon, 26 June 2017 16:27 Go to previous message
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Adam wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 16:23

RDOilerfan wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 16:16


Why isn't Yakupov relevant? You like to bring up certain stats to make your case about Russell and beat me over the head with them. Yakupov had fancy stats that said he was a top 6 forward and should be playing with McDavid yet he might be out of the NHL in a couple of months. So they work for you sometimes but not others?

So Yakupov is totally relevant because it shows that sometimes stats don't tell the whole picture about a player good or bad.


This debate isn't even about fancy stats...it's about whether Russell moves the puck up ice well.

And stats can change. Yakupov did not maintain his pace of even his last year when he went to St. Louis. He had a coach who didn't believe in him and didn't use him. He didn't fit in.

If you look at his production in earlier seasons, it's not fancy stats that said he was a useful player...it was things like goals and assists. Pull up some of the old threads. The discussion compared him to other people playing similar roles and his numbers were favourable.


Yak is last years debate, he is dead to me now ;-)
To bring this back to Russell and passing. No beating over the head and no fancy stats.
Do you believe that Russell hammers the puck off the glass more often than he makes an outlet pass to someone other than his D partner?

That is strictly eye test and when I see Russell on the ice that is what I see from him. Perhaps I am missing some simple things he does to advance the puck but this is why I dont trust him back there.

Maybe some non fancy stats on how many times he iced the puck? Is that tracked somewhere?

I know where you are coming from RDOF, fancy stats arent the be all and end all and so far there isnt a single stat that can be trusted, especially for defencemen.



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